Northwest Dive Club

Helicopters are cool, but they are more complex, less safe, and more expensive to operate than airplanes. It's silly to use a helicopter when an airplane is better suited to the job. Some jobs require the special capabilities of the helicopter, and those are the situations where it is appropriate. I look at CCR vs. OC the same way. When someone is doing a 300ft dive CCR is the logical choice. When they're going to 70ft for an hour it isn't. It doesn't have anything to do with how awesome the diver is.

Edit: I want to add that I'm not judging any CCR diver who does rec-profile dives on their CCR in addition to dives that truely warrant it's use. You have to stay competent with your equipment and it seems only logical that you'd use it in a recreational setting if only to maintain proficiency.

I am certainly not experienced enough in OC (or at all on rebreathers) diving to really have good input on the safety or technical issues that you guys bring up. However, as a nerdy geek this whole rec rebreather thing has intrigued me purely as "future tech" for diving. It seems that OC has is pretty much tapped in terms of technological advancement and has been for years. Regs are not changing. Tanks can't be made smaller and lighter without increasing pressures beyond what first stages will handle and screwing up buoyancy characteristics. The physical size of the bigger tanks make them ungainly for a lot of divers.

The idea of a future refined recreational rebreather that would provide for 4-6 hours of bottom time and fit in a small light weight package is pretty sweet. I read the DAN fatality workshop materials from 2008 and they said that OOG was the triggering event in almost 70% of diving fatalities. It seems like a rebreather (that was refined enough not to kill you in other ways) would provide additional safety margins in this regard. So, in my mind someday we will all be diving on rebreathers and that these new products are just the first steps in that direction. I have no idea whether these particular units are safe but I don't think that anyone will be diving OC in 20 years. What do you guys think?

Hmmm. This actually turned into a pretty interesting conversation. I have a few thoughts, but I'm going to save them until I get home, instead of punching them into my phone.

I love CCR diving and admit, mine collects too much dust compared to my OC gear. OC is just easier when I'm heading out with my 15 y/o to do a purely recreational dive. It takes about 5 minutes to have OC gear ready vs. an hour for the rebreather.

That said, I think there will always be a place for OC diving. It's simple, it's nearly foolproof and it works. But with that in mind so does a pocket calculator vs. a PC. By our nature we always want something more advanced.

Recreational rebreathers are here and they will be here to stay. This is diving and we all have out opinions and thoughts on every topic from reg configuration to drysuit color so it's impossible to ever have a total consensus on anything.

Right now, rebreathers have 2 major weaknesses 3 if you count the operator.

1. Cells - People wouldn't be putting 3,4,5 cells into rebreathers if the things were 100 % reliable. They simply aren't, so much so that Teledyne quit making them.

2. Sorb, It's too fragile - don't get it too hot, don't leave the cover off, don't let it freeze, pack it correctly. Cartridges are hard to get and aren't the perfect solution either.

Until those 2 things are sorted out, I think the whole recreational rebreather thing is the cart before the horse.

Interesting article here: http://www.divermag.com/marketing-rebreathers/

Of course, one person's opinion but he does make some very good points.

Novice wrote:I have no idea whether these particular units are safe but I don't think that anyone will be diving OC in 20 years. What do you guys think?

These filipino divers use plastic tubing connected to a crappy old compressor. Maybe in 20 years they'll step up to using some of the OC gear we take for granted now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmfCwh8LiPU

Grateful Diver wrote: No ... you're not the only one ... but I figured for once in my life I should just not offer an opinion ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

!?!??! Whoa!

Yabbut, then I did anyway ... I got no discipline ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

spatman wrote:

Novice wrote:I have no idea whether these particular units are safe but I don't think that anyone will be diving OC in 20 years. What do you guys think?

These filipino divers use plastic tubing connected to a crappy old compressor. Maybe in 20 years they'll step up to using some of the OC gear we take for granted now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmfCwh8LiPU

Hmmmm. I own several crappy compressors already.......

Raydar wrote: MSRP of $5500, eh?

That's a pretty expensive drager!

airsix wrote:Helicopters are cool, but they are more complex, less safe, and more expensive to operate than airplanes. It's silly to use a helicopter when an airplane is better suited to the job. Some jobs require the special capabilities of the helicopter, and those are the situations where it is appropriate. I look at CCR vs. OC the same way. When someone is doing a 300ft dive CCR is the logical choice. When they're going to 70ft for an hour it isn't. It doesn't have anything to do with how awesome the diver is.

Edit: I want to add that I'm not judging any CCR diver who does rec-profile dives on their CCR in addition to dives that truely warrant it's use. You have to stay competent with your equipment and it seems only logical that you'd use it in a recreational setting if only to maintain proficiency.

For some divers I can see the need from a photography persepctive. But carrying a whole OC setup as bailout just to be a bubble-less rec diver is a big hassle, nevermind the steep price tag. The GEM is a nice unit, and at least it has the option for expansion. But damn is it buoyant.

Just ran across a video about the unit that VR was showing at DEMA last year. Isn't this what Hollis is marketing now?

[vimeo]http://www.vimeo.com/16995605[/vimeo]

CaptnJack wrote:

airsix wrote:Helicopters are cool, but they are more complex, less safe, and more expensive to operate than airplanes. It's .

For some divers I can see the need from a photography persepctive. But carrying a whole OC setup as bailout just to be a bubble-less rec diver is a big hassle, nevermind the steep price tag. The GEM is a nice unit, and at least it has the option for expansion. But damn is it buoyant.

how buoyant is it in practice? also curious how it breaths in different positions?

CaptnJack wrote:

airsix wrote:Helicopters are cool, but they are more complex, less safe, and more expensive to operate than airplanes. It's silly to use a helicopter when an airplane is better suited to the job. Some jobs require the special capabilities of the helicopter, and those are the situations where it is appropriate. I look at CCR vs. OC the same way. When someone is doing a 300ft dive CCR is the logical choice. When they're going to 70ft for an hour it isn't. It doesn't have anything to do with how awesome the diver is.

Edit: I want to add that I'm not judging any CCR diver who does rec-profile dives on their CCR in addition to dives that truely warrant it's use. You have to stay competent with your equipment and it seems only logical that you'd use it in a recreational setting if only to maintain proficiency.

For some divers I can see the need from a photography persepctive. But carrying a whole OC setup as bailout just to be a bubble-less rec diver is a big hassle

I guess I've been doing it for so long that I really don't think carrying a 40 on my left side to be any kind of hassle at all. As a matter of fact, I carry one or 2 80s for almost every dive I do. Last time I did a dive with a single 40, I felt like I was forgetting something....

ljjames wrote:

CaptnJack wrote:

airsix wrote:Helicopters are cool, but they are more complex, less safe, and more expensive to operate than airplanes. It's .

For some divers I can see the need from a photography persepctive. But carrying a whole OC setup as bailout just to be a bubble-less rec diver is a big hassle, nevermind the steep price tag. The GEM is a nice unit, and at least it has the option for expansion. But damn is it buoyant.

how buoyant is it in practice? also curious how it breaths in different positions?

LCF asked on TDS awhile back & one of the instructors answered. Doug Ebersoll maybe? I don't recall the exact amount but it was +8 or more. On top of whatever weighting you need for your normal single tank. A bag o' air takes lead to sink.

since no one has posted it:

http://www.divermag.com/marketing-rebreathers/

There is so much in that article that I agree with ... but this paragraph sums up my feelings on this and many other safety-related topics pretty concisely ...

I have always been a champion of people’s individual rights, even when I think what they are doing is damn fool stupid. But, I strongly believe you have a responsibility to limit the exposure of people who don’t know better. And that applies to organizations as well as individuals. It’s one thing to do something yourself, but it’s another to promote it, because now you’ve taken on a different mantle of responsibility and I take that as a much stronger responsibility.

This doesn't just apply to rebreathers, but several other topics that can be controversial or not, depending on your personal outlook. Over on ScubaBoard we have a local (Whidbey Island) diver who's been actively hawking the "benefits" of deep bounce diving on single tanks. I pretty much see the same logic applying to that topic ... as well as solo diving. I solo dive ... I love solo diving under certain circumstances ... but I would not, and do not, promote solo diving as a smart thing to do for the typical recreational diver.

If you're going to do any of these things, it's in your best interest from a safety perspective to gain appropriate diving experience and take appropriate training first ... because it isn't usually weak skills that'll get you in trouble ... it's poor decisions that get made based on inadequate knowledge and understanding of the risks involved. And that's where a market-based decision to provide access to these tools to relatively inexperienced divers poses the greatest risk ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

What Bob said.

Grateful Diver wrote:There is so much in that article that I agree with ... but this paragraph sums up my feelings on this and many other safety-related topics pretty concisely ...

I have always been a champion of people’s individual rights, even when I think what they are doing is damn fool stupid. But, I strongly believe you have a responsibility to limit the exposure of people who don’t know better. And that applies to organizations as well as individuals. It’s one thing to do something yourself, but it’s another to promote it, because now you’ve taken on a different mantle of responsibility and I take that as a much stronger responsibility.

This doesn't just apply to rebreathers, but several other topics that can be controversial or not, depending on your personal outlook. Over on ScubaBoard we have a local (Whidbey Island) diver who's been actively hawking the "benefits" of deep bounce diving on single tanks. I pretty much see the same logic applying to that topic ... as well as solo diving. I solo dive ... I love solo diving under certain circumstances ... but I would not, and do not, promote solo diving as a smart thing to do for the typical recreational diver.

If you're going to do any of these things, it's in your best interest from a safety perspective to gain appropriate diving experience and take appropriate training first ... because it isn't usually weak skills that'll get you in trouble ... it's poor decisions that get made based on inadequate knowledge and understanding of the risks involved. And that's where a market-based decision to provide access to these tools to relatively inexperienced divers poses the greatest risk ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Yep. Great post Bob. I have to (cough, choke) give JJ credit for that interview, too. He's pretty much right on the money. As a very committed closed-circuit fan, I have a fairly unique perspective- I'm one of the rapidly growing group of new school CCR divers- the ones who skipped right past OC trimix and bought rebreathers. Like a lot of people, I looked at how people were doing the dives I wanted to do (Shipwrecks in the 200-300' range), and saw a majority of them being done on closed circuit, by divers who had started off doing them on open circuit. Over and over again, when I asked whether there was a big benefit to learning OC Trimix before doing CCR, the answers ran the spectrum from "No" to "Hmmm- not really.." with a very few long winded replies from old-timers rambling on about how I needed to spend 20 years diving the Doria in doubles before I considered anything as crazy as CCR. I made my choice, and a year and a half after doing my OW class, I was diving my Meg.

At that point, I was a full-on CCR fanboy. I still am, at heart, but.......well, hanging out on sites like Rebreather World and Deco Stop, you really start to notice all the people dying on CCRs. My first reaction was to become an amatuer web CSI investigator- there are legions of folks who pick apart each fatality online. We all look for the "mistake that guy made that I would never make." And a lot of times- the majority, even, it can be found. From improper assembly, carelessness, diving with inadequate bailout......there is usually a reason we can find for each fatality. But not always. Sometimes people die, and we never find out why.

I accept this. I'm happy diving the way I do, and I still think it's a safer approach to the dives I love to do. I'd be terrified to do a 300' dive on OC. Down deep, knowing that whatever else happens, I am mostly limited by the 3-4 hour duration of my scrubber, brings me a warm, fuzzy, calm feeling. Spending $8.74 for a 10/70 fill makes me giddy. I never tire of the quiet, bubble-less dives breathing warm, moist gas. And I dive my Meg exclusively, just because I want to keep all my CCR skills current, and also because I believe that dive gear that doesn't get dived enough tends to break a lot.

So- anyway....about the "Recreational Rebreather" thing. I don't know exactly what to think about it. One reason I'm cautious about recommending CCRs to folks is that I'm scared that someone is going to buy one because I told them how great CCRs are, and subsequently die diving one. I don't need that guilt, or Karma. If someone is gung-ho to do deep dives, or has simply concluded that they want one, I'm happy to talk to them about what I did.....but I would NEVER push a CCR on anyone. The new units like the MK6 and the Gem seem pretty cool, but I'm taking a "wait and see" approach. the Draegers seemed pretty cool, but plenty of people have died on those. And PADI doesn't exactly have a great track record with thorough and intensive dive training. I would be very interested in seeing their materials for this "rCCR" program.

Joshua Smith wrote: I have to (cough, choke) give JJ credit for that interview, too. He's pretty much right on the money.

Did that hurt a lot?

ljjames wrote:

Joshua Smith wrote: I have to (cough, choke) give JJ credit for that interview, too. He's pretty much right on the money.

Did that hurt a lot?

When you're right, you're right.

spatman wrote:http://www.vimeo.com/31707371

Cute toy... maybe I'm biased though

Geek wrote:

spatman wrote:http://www.vimeo.com/31707371

Cute toy... maybe I'm biased though

Once you drive a Mercedes, It's hard to think anything is as nice.

Is there a definite price yet?