Some thoughts

[pensacoladiver]

dont go dive trail'n'error - get some training/mentoring throughout your dive carreer..)

Absolutely! Fortunately, mine was all mentoring or I guess you could call it training I didn't pay for... tomato, tomato

I guess it helped owning a boat and always having seats available on it for some divers who knew (and still know) a whole hell of a lot more than me.

[CaptnJack]

Laura if you are part of this pool of divers 'fairly commonly' having CO2 hits on the Bomber or Harpoon then I would say that you are doing something wrong and its time to back off.

I have heard someone complain about being "a bit" narced more than usual maybe a half dozen times in ~175 aggregate dives. Dives I have either been on personally or which were done off my boat with me right there. So roughly 3% frequency. Not what I would call "fairly common" more like something between unusual and rare.

(although I guess you could call the Wildcats 'bombers' despite not being in ~140ffw)

[Joshua Smith]

Its also fairly common around here to have OC tech divers taking CO2 hits diving in the lake (and there's no training agency that gives you a bulletproof vest that will help you to avoid it entirely), and of the cases I know of most of the time it seems to be on one of the bombers to only 135-145 or so.

Who/where are you getting these "fairly common" statements from? I have done the Harpoon, Valient, and Bomber maybe 40 or 50 times in aggregate. And for most of those dives there have been between 1 and 3 other buddies on my boat. So I've been there for pushing 175 dives total on these wrecks and I have yet to hear any feedback on CO2 hits.

"Jeesh I was a little narced on that today" sure. Myself and various buddies have said that once or twice. "Damn I was huffing like a freight train and I think I had a CO2 hit" never.

I think opinions about C02 "hits" while diving are.....uh.....plentiful. But, here's a story for ya- I did the bomber from shore with a scooter one time. I had a tank of dil I had mixed for something deep that didn't happen. I don't remember, but I think it was 10/60-ish, for a 300'+ dive, and I thought "what the hell" and used it for the bomber (150' ish, isn't it? it's been a while). Anyway, it was a typical day in the lake, crappy viz, and I must confess that my scooter weighting was way off, too, so I was, uh....not *improving* the viz at all. Somewhere between 130'- 140', I lost my buddies. I could hear them, but I couldn't find them, and I suddenly got *wildly* narced. Breathing 10/60. Using a scooter. In the lake- no current, not working hard (physically. Mentally, my little brain was pretty much maxed). I never got deeper than 140', so my END was, like, 50'. And I was narced out of my gourd. I turned and headed for home, screwed up the compass bearing (Duh. It's Lake WA. Head WEST, you idiot!), and shot a bag when my deco started to rack up. I maybe should have bailed out, but I was sure that my loop was OK, and that the problem was in my head, and I was right. Swirling clouds of silt+ stress make me feel narced, even when I'm probably *not* narced.

[ljjames]

lol! thanks for your concern Richard, but if you read all the way through, I said my personal experience in the lake has been more like yours.

Laura if you are part of this pool of divers 'fairly commonly' having CO2 hits on the Bomber or Harpoon then I would say that you are doing something wrong and its time to back off.

I have heard someone complain about being "a bit" narced more than usual maybe a half dozen times in ~175 aggregate dives. Dives I have either been on personally or which were done off my boat with me right there. So roughly 3% frequency. Not what I would call "fairly common" more like something between unusual and rare.

(although I guess you could call the Wildcats 'bombers' despite not being in ~140ffw)

[mz53480]

...debating in my head whether I should just go to the surface to get my breath or have H2Odoctor come rescue me...

fixed that for ya






Sir

[lamont]

Its also fairly common around here to have OC tech divers taking CO2 hits diving in the lake (and there's no training agency that gives you a bulletproof vest that will help you to avoid it entirely), and of the cases I know of most of the time it seems to be on one of the bombers to only 135-145 or so.

Who/where are you getting these "fairly common" statements from? I have done the Harpoon, Valient, and Bomber maybe 40 or 50 times in aggregate. And for most of those dives there have been between 1 and 3 other buddies on my boat. So I've been there for pushing 175 dives total on these wrecks and I have yet to hear any feedback on CO2 hits.

"Jeesh I was a little narced on that today" sure. Myself and various buddies have said that once or twice. "Damn I was huffing like a freight train and I think I had a CO2 hit" never.

When I look at tech divers who drop-out, the reason for that dropping out is fairly commonly a CO2 hit, on a career-by-career basis. I didn't mean to imply that in doing dives on the bombers its fairly common to see a CO2 hit on a dive-by-dive basis.

And we can probably argue over what "fairly common" means, but I know of several, I suspect a couple others -- and like I said I wonder if this isn't something more common than I know of.

[lamont]

Laura if you are part of this pool of divers 'fairly commonly' having CO2 hits on the Bomber or Harpoon then I would say that you are doing something wrong and its time to back off.

That is kind of my point. I can think of several divers that I know of having CO2 hits on the bombers -- one is the diver Laura is talking about.

And I look at those dives and I don't really 'get it' either. There's nothing about them that should be especially stressful.

And getting back onto the topic of too-soon-too-fast and inexperience or overconfidence, its those kinds of outcomes that makes me think that we actually do have a problem with tech divers going to fast in our community. And nobody really talks about it.

And really, when Josh posts about how he went really, really fast through everything and turned out fine, it makes me worried that he's just encouraging outcomes like that, more than he's doing a service to new divers and their enthusiasm.

[lamont]

I think opinions about C02 "hits" while diving are.....uh.....plentiful. But, here's a story for ya- I did the bomber from shore with a scooter one time. I had a tank of dil I had mixed for something deep that didn't happen. I don't remember, but I think it was 10/60-ish, for a 300'+ dive, and I thought "what the hell" and used it for the bomber (150' ish, isn't it? it's been a while). Anyway, it was a typical day in the lake, crappy viz, and I must confess that my scooter weighting was way off, too, so I was, uh....not *improving* the viz at all. Somewhere between 130'- 140', I lost my buddies. I could hear them, but I couldn't find them, and I suddenly got *wildly* narced. Breathing 10/60. Using a scooter. In the lake- no current, not working hard (physically. Mentally, my little brain was pretty much maxed). I never got deeper than 140', so my END was, like, 50'. And I was narced out of my gourd. I turned and headed for home, screwed up the compass bearing (Duh. It's Lake WA. Head WEST, you idiot!), and shot a bag when my deco started to rack up. I maybe should have bailed out, but I was sure that my loop was OK, and that the problem was in my head, and I was right. Swirling clouds of silt+ stress make me feel narced, even when I'm probably *not* narced.

And the only difference here is really that you managed your anxiety levels. Other divers have that exact same thing happen and wind up in a panic or near panic due to the CO2 narc, and they wind up selling their gear afterwards.

And really with 10/60 and a scooter there's not a lot of reason to be getting CO2-narc'd at 130-140 like that. But you just described precisely what I'm talking about. Scooters and lost line/lost buddies in bad/stirred up lake viz seem to often be involved (although the case Laura posted about earlier in the 90s was before people were using scooters -- I have no idea what the actual details were there).

[Nwbrewer]

Sorry, I couldn't follow all the way through this thread. I just saw the title and that the OP was Josh Smith, and figured I'd better make sure he didn't hurt himself.

Please carry on with the pissing match.

or go diving....

[kdupreez]

Josh.. ya cant win.. can ya... not even by starting a new thread.... this must surely be winter time in the PNW..

.

[eliseaboo]

Josh.. ya cant win.. can ya... not even by starting a new thread.... this must surely be winter time in the PNW..

.

I was actually kind of enjoying the discussion. I don't spend a lot of time "cyber diving" other than at this site, so I hadn't really heard that much about CO2 hits. I get kind of panic-y narcosis myself (not CO2, but rather I can trace this back to a single event and underlying anxiety, yada yada) so I understand the overwhelming discomfort that sort of dive can produce. I guess it's another way to frame the "Stop, breathe, think, act" mind set when things aren't right. But I was going to suggest that this thread could be split at this point. I know this is NWDC and all but...

[CaptnJack]

I think opinions about C02 "hits" while diving are.....uh.....plentiful. <snip> Swirling clouds of silt+ stress make me feel narced, even when I'm probably *not* narced.

"plentiful" is that like 7/3rds estrogen fueled bull crap?

[kdupreez]

I think opinions about C02 "hits" while diving are.....uh.....plentiful. <snip> Swirling clouds of silt+ stress make me feel narced, even when I'm probably *not* narced.

"plentiful" is that like 7/3rds estrogen fueled bull crap?

Thats just josh suffering the effects of the "special" stuff he likes to sprinkle over his sorb...

[Geek]

I know a guy who has a friend that was roomates with a dude that had sister thats husband who was a friend of mine and HE told me if all your gear isn't black your going to die..... or was it the other way around? Have to look at the % there I guess...

Carry on...

[lamont]

Josh.. ya cant win.. can ya... not even by starting a new thread.... this must surely be winter time in the PNW..

He started a new thread basically saying that it was cool to race through training, because he did it.

I'm not sure I understand the applause at that position.

I remain skeptical, based on what I've seen happen, the dive buddies of mine that have gone too fast and dropped out, and the perspective that I've gained from my instructors.

I'm continually puzzled why divers who I know have been exposed to the same training and ideas get onto this board and defend some of these practices. Apparently personalities and the locker room ambiance around here trump everything else.

[spatman]

He started a new thread basically saying that it was cool to race through training, because he did it.

uh, not really.

Conventional wisdom around here is that divers should progress very conservatively in their education. Which is fine, for most divers. But not ALL divers.

<snip>

I'm not suggesting that it's wrong to caution people away from diving outside their limits.

<snip>

I did more than a few ill advised dives my first year or so, and I think that a lot of other divers do, too. Discouraging them from further training seems like a bad thing, to me. They might just learn something that will save their life someday.

[Joshua Smith]

Josh.. ya cant win.. can ya... not even by starting a new thread.... this must surely be winter time in the PNW..

He started a new thread basically saying that it was cool to race through training, because he did it.

I'm not sure I understand the applause at that position.

I remain skeptical, based on what I've seen happen, the dive buddies of mine that have gone too fast and dropped out, and the perspective that I've gained from my instructors.

I'm continually puzzled why divers who I know have been exposed to the same training and ideas get onto this board and defend some of these practices. Apparently personalities and the locker room ambiance around here trump everything else.

Wow. So, that's really what you think? Interesting.

[kdupreez]

Josh.. ya cant win.. can ya... not even by starting a new thread.... this must surely be winter time in the PNW..

He started a new thread basically saying that it was cool to race through training, because he did it.

I'm not sure I understand the applause at that position.

I remain skeptical, based on what I've seen happen, the dive buddies of mine that have gone too fast and dropped out, and the perspective that I've gained from my instructors.

I'm continually puzzled why divers who I know have been exposed to the same training and ideas get onto this board and defend some of these practices. Apparently personalities and the locker room ambiance around here trump everything else.

I think you are having a CO2 hit... Cause that's not what Josh said and not what any of us are "applauding"

Chill, Bro..


.

[Grateful Diver]

I don't think that's what he said either ... but I'm still kinda torn how I feel about it.

On the one hand, getting educated is a good thing ... as an instructor, I highly encourage it.

On the other hand, half-assed education is worse than useless ... it gives people a false sense of their abilities, and tends to encourage those who would go too far too fast to go even farther and faster. And that's just not something I think we should be encouraging.

I'm completely with Josh that there aren't any hard rules that should apply to everyone ... we're all different, and everyone learns at their own pace. And for that reason I try not to be judgmental when someone says something that raises "alarms" in my head about whether it's prudent or not.

On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with mentioning that those "alarms" are going off ... as long as it's done in a way that doesn't come across as judgmental.

We're all adults ... we all have our own goals and our own way of achieving them ... and we all ultimately get to decide for ourselves if something's right or wrong for us. But I really don't see anything wrong with someone saying "slow down, turbo" ... it's up to us to decide how we take their advice.

Discouraging people from giving that advice kinda takes the choice away from us ... don't you think?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[lamont]

So can someone explain the point of this thread to me?

Seemed to open the door wide open to a discussion of too-soon-too-fast to me.

[Joshua Smith]

So can someone explain the point of this thread to me?

Seemed to open the door wide open to a discussion of too-soon-too-fast to me.

There's a perfectly good explanation in my original post. You, however, seem to want to read things into it that I did not intend. I won't try to change your mind about anything, however. I know pointless when I see it.

I tried to dig up the thread from last year where some guy that most of us did not even know started- he was going to do a dive to 130' to test some gear. The resulting pile on of "whoa! Slow down! Do you have enough gas for you AND your buddy to do this dive? What level of training do you have? What gas are you using? etc, etc, etc" was frankly, embarrassing. And it's also the reason that a lot of people don't use this board.

People sometimes ask me why I don't post here much.

I'm going back to the locker room now.

[CaptnJack]

People sometimes ask me why I don't post here much.

I'm going back to the locker room now.

What you do post is generally pretty funny though

[Jeff Pack]

Choo choo, watching that train wreck coming

[CaptnJack]

Choo choo, watching that train wreck coming

Look at you go! Noob no more

[kdupreez]

People sometimes ask me why I don't post here much.

I'm going back to the locker room now.

What you do post is generally pretty funny though

Agreed!!, but I have to admit, what you do in the locker room is sometimes a little strange.. Even by a south african's standards

.