Perception of the DIR community?

Zen Diver · Post by **Zen Diver** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:17 am

Grateful Diver wrote:

Fact is it ain't any different than any other community ... it's made up of all kinds of different people. Some of them are very likeable and helpful ... some are people you just don't want to be around ... and the majority are somewhere in between. Most just want to go out, dive, and have fun.

In other words, not much different than the rest of the diving community.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Most excellent post Bob, thoughtful and well written. Thanks.

-Valerie

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:51 am

Rob Holman wrote:This is the same thread that has been on every board since boards began!

Basically yes, but this board is newer so it had to have a therad like this too. And low and behold its quite a bit more mature in its attitudes.

Rob Holman wrote: What I always take away from it is people are way too concerned with what others think of them, and egos rule this sport (on both sides of the DIR fence).

Actually egos rule in most sports, you should have seen the climbing rags in the '80s and '90s... sport vs. trad who are the real men, who ha!

Rob Holman wrote: And Richard, I know you are just jealous over my scooter!

Any scooter is better than no scooter at the Gedney Bar!

BDub · Post by **BDub** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:34 am

Great post Bob (I'm not going to quote it cause it's too long). I've seen a change in the "attitudes" from and towards dir in the local area over the 3 years or so. I personally think it comes from a couple of different things.

I think everyone needs to think back to when they were first certified. For most people, it was an amazing experience...regardless of whether the training was sufficient or not, just the experience of being underwater. Look at the enthusiasm every new diver has.

I sat in on Joe Talavera's Essentials class last year, and I remember leaving that class having a strong renewed enthusiasm for diving, and even more for instructing.

DIR is awesome training and DIR instructors are incredible instructors, both in terms of what they teach and how they teach it. Creating enthusiasm is a very important aspect of instructing, IMO. Of course, many people are going to walk away from the training with enthusiasm for what they've learned.

Three or more years ago, many would finish the class and want to find all the information they could about dir, and they'd stumble upon George Irvine, who, as most people know was not the most eloquent internet persona. Many new, impressionable, and enthusiastic dir neophytes, after reading many of GI3's posts and information on the internet, would start taking on some of that attitude, naturally, he was the most recognizable face of dir. It's easy to dive and quarterback while you're at the computer with plenty of time to process your thoughts. Going out, diving, practicing your skills to proficiency, then perfection, is tough, and many times, those neophytes who were thumping their chests on the internet started getting a little quieter when they learned just how tough it is to reach the bar. I also believe that since GI's internet presence isn't as strong, and since that influence is not as abundant anymore, a lot of that internet attitude has simmered.

I think the other reason the attitudes have settled a little is that dir is undergoing a change right now, not in approach or standards, but in the business model. Now that AG and Joe have migrated to NAUI, GUE doesn't own the dir market now and I personally have seen a change in how they present themselves, not sure if it’s an accurate observation or not. Competition requires change and it appears that’s taking place right now.

So, I personally don’t see the attitudes, in person. You’re always going to have them on the internet, but I don’t see much at the dive sites, except for the occasional recently converted. I think Bob makes a good point though, it not just confined to GUE.

runamonk · Post by **runamonk** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:17 am

My wife and I dive the configuration we dive because we really liked how it looked on BDub and Edge.

How can you go wrong with:

All Black?

In all seriousness, we switched over to using a harness not because of the neophytes we read about on the internet in fact most of them are simply embarrassing to the people who choose to dive in similar GUE or DIR configurations. We switched over to a hog harness and long hose because it made sense for our style of diving. It doesn't make us better divers but it makes us feel more comfortable.

-R

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:58 am

I'll add my 3500psi here too...

I've had good and bad experiences with DIR and non-DIR... and dare I say "semi-DIR?!"

Oh No!

My initial OW training was from a DIR shop with a non-DIR instructor. Good training but it could have been much better. GD was SUPPOSED to be my instructor, but it didn't work out that way.

At that shop I was immersed in DIR ego BS. Even as a non-diver before the class I could smell the BS. After my training I quickly alligned myself with people like GD and Rob Holman to begin really learning to dive.

My Experience:

I have been exposed to perhaps the biggest DIR jerks around and several of his "team." They continually told me that if I didn't do it their way, that I'd die and that "they'd never dive with me cause I'd kill them." I couldn't, and still can't, understand however how having a depth/spg gauge instead of just an spg was going to kill me. How can MORE information kill me? If I wear a bottom timer AND a computer... how will that kill me too? These along with MANY other issues (one I will share below) caused me to now drive 3-times the distance to my NEW favorite LDS, NWSD!!! $\:D/$

REGARDING DIR "SAFETY":

As a brand new diver who didn't know better at the time, Mr. self-proclaimed "DIR God" himself sold me a LOW PRESSURE steel 80cu' tank, with a valve rated to 3000psi, and a BURST DISK RATED TO 5000 telling me it was a HIGH PRESSURE 100 that I could safely "cave fill" to 3800psi!!! This means in a hyper-pressure failure, the tank will explode before the burst disk fails safely. He gave me some dog & pony BS about Canada's DOT and "we've been filling them like this for years," blah, blah, blah BS.

Fortunately the tank is safe, in hydro and visual, didn't have any damage and is now being filled appropriately by NWSD in Kenmore.

Oh the colorful things that came out of my mouth when I found that out.

For the record, I confronted him on this and he said he would order a REAL HP100 and trade me straight across... that was over 3 months ago and I have stopped hearing from him now... I don't expect a tank will be arriving anytime soon.

What does THIS say about DIR? How SAFE is DIR looking at it through this window? At the same time, I practice many (but not all) aspects of DIR in my everyday diving because, in my opinion, they HAVE made me a safer diver.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have several friends who are DIR whom I love. I have heard the DIR discussion a lot due to my gear configuration (which is NOT DIR) and have experienced people being fearful of talking with someone DIR because they don't want to hear 10 reasons their gear is all wrong and going to kill them. Even more so however is non-DIR folks just plain "not wanting to hear it" from the Nazis.

I don't know ANY agency (NAUI, GUE, PADI, IANTD, SSI, etc) that teaches unsafe diving. There are good instructors and poor ones... unfortunately, like real estate agents, consumers don't interview them or know what to ask if they do. The agencies themselves however do not endorse or teach unsafe diving.

GD said exactly what I was going to say. There are jerks in every sport, industry, church, whatever. In diving we're no different and within the DIR community there are jerks, and there are some of the nicest people you've ever met.

Becoming DIR doesn't make someone a jerk... they were a jerk long before they ever started diving.

I adore my DIR friends and there are other DIR folks I don't care for. I have taken what I wanted to from the DIR ideals and left the rest behind. I have a webbing harness on my backplate, but it has quick-releases. I have a bottom timer, and a computer. I have an spg clipped to my left side, but it also has a depth gauge on it. I use a frog kick, unless I'm using a flutter kick. I dive with DIR people, unless I'm diving with non-DIR people.

I wish it wasn't such an "Us & Them" mentality. But for some people it is and I do not wish to dive with them. There are far too many wonderful people in this arena to waste time with the sour grapes.

So there are my experiences with DIR folks. I think the DIR philosophy is a sound one, as is the traditional recreational philosophy. I think it's the PEOPLE that make all the fuss.

(Sounder quietly climbs off his soap box and humbly appreciates being given his time to rant)

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:24 am

As someone pointed out to me offline, this discussion has been by many DIR and somewhat DIR folks.

I'd really appreciate hearing other's impressions as well. I think it's great that this thread has been handled this way... amazing! By this time in just about every other thread, the name calling and "mine is bigger than yours" BS would be well underway. It's nice to know you won't be attacked here.

I'd love to hear from Bassman, Tom Nic, Pinkpadigal, Girldiver, etc!!! Common folks! The water's great!

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:29 am

Sounder wrote: I'd really appreciate hearing other's impressions as well.

This was really my point . . .

Sounder wrote:I think it's great that this thread has been handled this way... amazing! By this time in just about every other thread, the name calling and "mine is bigger than yours" BS would be well underway. It's nice to know you won't be attacked here.

Totally agree with you, maybe this is a sign that times are changing . . .

Sounder wrote: I'd love to hear from Bassman, Tom Nic, Pinkpadigal, Girldiver, etc!!! Common folks! The water's great!

Agreed here as well, I'd love for some more varied opinions, positive, negative, whatever. I thought this thread really took off when Calvin offered his perspective, and I imagine discussing other perspectives will be similarly productive.

And, if people want to go for a dive, don't be shy about pinging the DIR types, I'm always up for a dive (if you can consider me DIR). Especially today, it is f-ing EPIC out there. I hate work, I'm sitting in my office staring at Elliott Bay wishing I was swimming with the fish in Cove 2.

Sergeant Pepper · Post by **Sergeant Pepper** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:19 pm

I'm still a new diver at 50 dives, but I will relate this to experience in my younger days with Martial Arts. (There should be a rolls eyes emoticon for just such an occasion I know)

When I was younger, I was involved in all types of Martial Arts, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Philippine et al. Some instructors were agreeable to their students learning whatever they wanted. Others, mostly due to pride, wanted you to only concentrate on what they had to offer. My tendency was to gravitate to the former.

In my everyday life as well as scuba, I take what makes sense to me and I leave the rest. I didn't want to be great at Aikido, I just wanted to socialize, improve my body, and express myself. It's the same with diving. Some people want to be able to walk up and say I am Chin-Pokeman Level 3 with a 2nd degree stripe on my belt for Cave Diving and Underwater Basket weaving, and here’s my certificate to prove it… that's not me. So my Advanced Open water is from PADI, and my Tech may be DIR. Most of what I learn to be a good dive buddy stems from the fact that I am open to improving my diving, whatever school of thought it may come from. What makes me comfortable, and a better diver, may not be what makes you comfortable and a better diver.

If I get further training, it may be DIR, but that is only because much, not all, of DIR thought makes sense to me. After the training, I would do as always, take some... leave some. And as stated before, I dive with people that I like as people, and who I feel comfortable diving with. I prefer to hear advice when I ask, or at the very least, be offered advice, not have my choices belittled. That goes for scuba and so many other things.

It’s funny how life’s easy lessons can be learned from all stages of life. Just the other day, my son came home and said that a kid at school told him to “shut up and go away” as he was trying to show him his cool new Star Wars lego. I told him not to talk to that kid and that he (my son) should not talk to others that way. I told him (in so many words), that if he lived humbly, and was friendly, he would be the one ending up with all of the friends. A hard lesson for 5 ½ year old to process, but something I think we as a dive community, whatever certification, are wise to embrace.

Can we go dive now?

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:42 pm

dsteding wrote: I'm sitting in my office staring at Elliott Bay wishing I was swimming with the fish in Cove 2.

Well, I'm diving with a couple of students this evening ... meeting at Cove 2 at 6:30 ... you're welcome to join us ... $\:D/$

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:29 pm

Grateful Diver wrote:
dsteding wrote: I'm sitting in my office staring at Elliott Bay wishing I was swimming with the fish in Cove 2.
Well, I'm diving with a couple of students this evening ... meeting at Cove 2 at 6:30 ... you're welcome to join us ... $\:D/$

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Tempting, but the 100s are up at NWSD and my buddy Seth (who you'll meet tomorrow) is hitting town around 7 ish . . .

I'm jealous, however. Looks like a great day for a dive.

Joshua Smith · Post by **Joshua Smith** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:45 pm

Waaaaay too nice out there to be working today, that's for damn sure.

I have a few thoughts about the original topic I'd like to share, but I don't have them gelled yet. I'll try and post them tonight.

I also want to thank everyone for keeping this thread free from the kind of crap that DIR topics seem to attract on the interwebs. I cringed when I saw it go up, and I have been very pleasantly suprised by all the posts in here.

Nwbrewer · Post by **Nwbrewer** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:48 pm

I love how most boards discussions of DIR devolve into name calling and finger pointing, yet on this board it devolves into planning to go diving.... $\:D/$

That said, I have never had a negative impression of any of the DIR divers that I've met while diving locally. Last summer I went to one of Bob's big buddy dives and dove with one of the DIR trained divers. At the time the only reason I knew he was DIR was a sarcastic comment about his own dealings with fellow DIR divers, grumbling something about spending $1000 on a flashlight because in his crowd it was considered "life support equipment"

That was probably my 10th dive or so, and I remember just being amazed at the amount of buoyancy control he had and just how easily he moved around cove 2, compared to my bouncing around in the water column in plow position. It certainly made an impression on me, and while I kind of doubt that I'll ever be doing any tech diving, or even if I'd consider Fundies, it has definitely inspired me to improve my diving skills.

Jake

runamonk · Post by **runamonk** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:49 pm

Just some good peeps here. =)

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:01 pm

One of the biggest reasons we can talk about this is BECAUSE we all dive together ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

runamonk · Post by **runamonk** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:14 pm

Grateful Diver wrote:One of the biggest reasons we can talk about this is BECAUSE we all dive together ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

LOL!

You know what's really cool? Two of the people that my wife and I dive with just got new HID lights and switched over to SPG's and Wrist mounted computers! Now they get to be cool and be tortured just like my wife and I were while trying to get used to a short hose on the SPG and clipping it off on the left side.

Damn you Brian, Damn you for asking for pressure so often. :-P

thelawgoddess · Post by **thelawgoddess** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:59 pm

it does seem to rub off. a friend of ours (who's been diving for probably more than 10 years), took a nitrox course at NWSD not too long back. and last i heard he had bought his first dive computer. i think he even did a safety stop with us the last time we went diving.

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:24 pm

thelawgoddess wrote:it does seem to rub off. a friend of ours (who's been diving for probably more than 10 years), took a nitrox course at NWSD not too long back. and last i heard he had bought his first dive computer. i think he even did a safety stop with us the last time we went diving.

I'm not sure I understand the connection you're trying to make?

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:39 pm

Nailer99 wrote:I cringed when I saw it go up, and I have been very pleasantly suprised by all the posts in here.

Me too and I'm sure we weren't alone. This is fantastic folks, what a great group!

I'm still very interested in what impressions other folks have - especially the "I've never given a thought to DIR" folks. This is the safest forum on this subject I've every read. Please don't be afraid to post - we're all very interested in what you have to say!!!

thelawgoddess · Post by **thelawgoddess** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:40 pm

CaptnJack wrote:
thelawgoddess wrote:it does seem to rub off. a friend of ours (who's been diving for probably more than 10 years), took a nitrox course at NWSD not too long back. and last i heard he had bought his first dive computer. i think he even did a safety stop with us the last time we went diving.
I'm not sure I understand the connection you're trying to make?

i was just referring to ron's post (above mine) about how some of their "technical" kitting is being adopted by their other [i'm-assuming-non-technical] dive buddies ...

Tom Nic · Post by **Tom Nic** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:54 pm

Nailer99 wrote:I cringed when I saw it go up, and I have been very pleasantly suprised by all the posts in here.

Me too. My guess is that a bunch of other folks on the board did as well.

Nailer99 wrote:I also want to thank everyone for keeping this thread free from the kind of crap that DIR topics seem to attract on the interwebs.

Amen!

Nwbrewer wrote:I love how most boards discussions of DIR devolve into name calling and finger pointing, yet on this board it devolves into planning to go diving.... $\:D/$

Perhaps, like Nailer, I'll comment later. What a day outside! Enjoy the day and the weekend! :rr: A joyous Resurrection Sunday to those who will be celebrating!

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:57 pm

Tom Nic wrote: Me too. My guess is that a bunch of other folks on the board did as well.

Okay, I'll bite . . . why the cringing? Why the thought that a bunch of other folks did as well?

(as I try to keep the thread moving in a productive manner . . . )

sparky · Post by **sparky** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:18 pm

I have not yet had the chance nor do I think my skills are good enough for the DIR Fundies class

i verry good diver I know and dive with as offten as I can had taken this corse and he was so taken with the improvements he fetlt that it made in his diving I also have had the benafit of knowing some of the Drcrownd and find them to be a verry grate bunch of guys and gals and I am offten seeking advice from them so I guess to answer your question I think the Seattle DIR Divers Rock

Just my two boubles

Sparky

Tangfish · Post by **Tangfish** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:18 pm

Grateful Diver wrote:Relating this to DIR, Calvin may not have realized that more than half the people on the Sechelt trip were DIR divers ... and I think he had a great time diving with and interacting with them. They didn't make a positive impression of DIR because it never came up as an issue ... we were just there to dive and have fun. But let one guy say something off-hand in a parking lot and it colors his impression of DIR ... because that one guy made DIR the issue. Does he speak for all DIR divers? Certainly not.

2 things, Bob:

- You're right, I didn't know that half the boat was DIR, till Doug told me that he aspired to that standard, and upon looking back (at the fact that I was the only person there w/o a BP/W)

- Please know that the exchange in the parking lot wasn't a really bad one, and didn't give me my existing impression of DIR divers. I held that stereotype since very early-on as a diver. In fact, I think the first person who ever told me about DIR transmitted the negatives to me (it wasn't their sole intention, they also spoke highly of the positives) and those negatives were only confirmed and reinforced when I arrived at SB and began to read the threads about this topic. The parking lot was just a recent example, and one of my only impressions of any of the local DIR folk, which is what Doug asked me to tell him about. Based on what we've uncovered here, I obviously have had more interactions that I wasn't even aware of (that were good ones).

My apologies to any of the DIR people who might've been offended by my first post on this subject. I've learned something from this exercise.

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:25 pm

Calvin wrote:

My apologies to any of the DIR people who might've been offended by my first post on this subject. I've learned something from this exercise.

Hey Calvin, no apologies necessary, the purpose here certainly isn't to call out people or try and tell them their impressions are "wrong."

Rather, I wanted to have a constructive dialogue, and your comments have been helpful with that. So, no worries, and if you've learned something, cool, if not that's fine as well.

We should really dive together sometime as well, I promise I won't tell you you are gonna die because you aren't wearing a BP/W

Tangfish · Post by **Tangfish** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:45 pm

dsteding wrote:I promise I won't tell you you are gonna die because you aren't wearing a BP/W

I get enough of that from Maverick and Nailer now about the lack of 7' hose. I think I'm going to get a 6' 11" hose just to mess with them.

Yeah, let's dive. I'm down either this Sunday or next Wednesday if either works for you.