Liquivision X1

[Joshua Smith]

I found one of these at a hotel I worked at once:

Hey.. aren't you that guy that dives with a radish tied around your waist?

I wear a bungied backup radish around my neck, if that's what you mean.

[dsteding]

Or as a lawyer

I hate you. :angry:

[gcbryan]

I don't know who is right here and if this wasn't already a long thread I wouldn't post but I'll post a short story about OS Systems.

I had an OS Systems drysuit. I sent it in to have the wrist seals replaced. When I got it back they popped off. The dive shop kept sending it back. To the dive shops credit (Lighthouse Seattle) they let me use free of charge a DUI CLX 450 while all this was going on...I put close to 100 dives on that suit and almost wore it out!

However, eventually the manufacturer (OS Systems) got tired of fixing the suit and started to say that since it was an old suit that it was just too old to repair anymore and started to blame me. It was old in years only...I hadn't used it much at the time. They said it must be delaminating or that I must have gotten silicone worked into the seal area and it was one story after another. This was the first time that the seals had been replaced...ever.

At the last minute when they were starting to really get nasty they started to get a lot of returns and complaints of a similar nature from dive shop repair departments with the same problem. After tracking things down they found out that their supplier of glue had changed the formula and it wasn't reacting properly with their suits. Once that was changed everything was fine.

They weren't trying to be sleazy and they were sure that it was my fault. I was sure that it was not. I ended up buying another suit shortly after that anyway (DUI). In the end they were wrong and ended up doing some additional work at a reduced price and I've now got a great backup suit but had other problems from other customers not come up immediately they would have been sure that I was at fault.

I'm not saying that's the issue here. As everyone has said it would be interesting to see the unit (of course Doug has I guess) but unless it looks like he actually ran his truck over it what exactly could he have done that the unit can't take if it can take being thrown around the parking lot at Cove 2?

It is a new product and even though I hate this phrase...you don't know what you don't know...can Liquivision really know that the crack wasn't enabled at least in part by the charging process? I understand that the engineers probably can in many cases (I used to work in a testing area of an engineering department). But...this is a new product.

I don't have the answer but I thought I'd share my similar (perhaps) story.

[defied]

[Kirby]

I want everyone here present to note, I started this thread by saying what a great computer the X1 is and how happy I was with its performance and with the companies customer service.

These are the facts of the matter as I know them. I dove the computer on multiple decompression dives on consecutive days, then left it hooked to the charger on a desktop hutch shelf out of the reach (I thought) of my grandkids. When I put the computer on the charger it was not cracked. The next day I found the computer still connected to the charger cable on my desktop 3 ft below that shelf. There was a crack in the display glass in an arc across the top of the display. The computer did not appear to have any external damage to the case, and was fully operational. I do not even know for sure that it fell, other than the fact that the liquivision folks analyzed the crack and stated it was due to traumatic force externally applied.

I have no way of verifying that, and was willing to accept their findings.

I assumed that the damage had taken place from the fall to the desk, and also assumed that it would cost me a goodly amount to have a crystal lens screen replaced. I sent the computer back with every expectation of having to pay for a new screen.

I then was contacted and notified that the computer was not repairable, and that I could buy another at their cost, a substantially reduced price from the retail price.

I guess the point I was trying to make by bringing this out to public discussion is that these computers are apparently not repairable. If the screen cracks or the battery goes caput, they are paper weights. I did not slam it on concrete or play baseball with it. I spent alot of money on it, and thought I was exercising care and caution. As stated in their support site posts, the pressure cracked? flawed? display computers have been replaced at no cost to several people. The fact that these cracks have occurred seems to indicate a problem.

If I buy another X1, which I can't afford until I save the money up again, I will insure it with DAN. I discovered that my homeowners insurance would not cover damage/loss like this breakage.

Evidently many other computers currently on the market have repairable components. I appreciate the feedback I received from all of you concerning this issue. I still really like the computer and its capabilities. Before I buy another I would like to be able to feel better about it not happening again.

[Sounder]

The X1 can be repaired in many circumstances, but in this case it was broken beyond repair. If it can't be repaired, and the problem is due to a defect, it will be replaced immediately.

This computer did not have a defect and was not able to be repaired due to the extent of the damage it sustained.

The cracks which have been mentioned are thermal cracks, not caused by trauma, and the problem has been addressed and fixed by the Liquivision engineering team.

[Gill Envy]

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I want everyone here present to note, I started this thread by saying what a great computer the X1 is and how happy I was with its performance and with the companies customer service.

These are the facts of the matter as I know them. I dove the computer on multiple decompression dives on consecutive days, then left it hooked to the charger on a desktop hutch shelf out of the reach (I thought) of my grandkids. When I put the computer on the charger it was not cracked. The next day I found the computer still connected to the charger cable on my desktop 3 ft below that shelf. There was a crack in the display glass in an arc across the top of the display. The computer did not appear to have any external damage to the case, and was fully operational. I do not even know for sure that it fell, other than the fact that the liquivision folks analyzed the crack and stated it was due to traumatic force externally applied.

I have no way of verifying that, and was willing to accept their findings.

I assumed that the damage had taken place from the fall to the desk, and also assumed that it would cost me a goodly amount to have a crystal lens screen replaced. I sent the computer back with every expectation of having to pay for a new screen.

I then was contacted and notified that the computer was not repairable, and that I could buy another at their cost, a substantially reduced price from the retail price.

I guess the point I was trying to make by bringing this out to public discussion is that these computers are apparently not repairable. If the screen cracks or the battery goes caput, they are paper weights. I did not slam it on concrete or play baseball with it. I spent alot of money on it, and thought I was exercising care and caution. As stated in their support site posts, the pressure cracked? flawed? display computers have been replaced at no cost to several people. The fact that these cracks have occurred seems to indicate a problem.

If I buy another X1, which I can't afford until I save the money up again, I will insure it with DAN. I discovered that my homeowners insurance would not cover damage/loss like this breakage.

Evidently many other computers currently on the market have repairable components. I appreciate the feedback I received from all of you concerning this issue. I still really like the computer and its capabilities. Before I buy another I would like to be able to feel better about it not happening again.

I do not wish to stir the pot here but I do have some concerns with this. Something about this just doesn't feel right to me. does the crack look like this: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/liquivis ... -x1-4.html

perhaps the charging process caused a thermal crack which protruded in the way expected but as it cooled the battery and plastic contracted and made the crack indent, looking like it occurred from an outside force.

As far as the whole physics thing, I'd have to say it's hard for even experts to be so sure of such things when it comes to synthetics. For example, over a year ago I bought a brand new highlander, within months a serious crack formed on the side wall of one tire, the dealer was absolutely sure it was caused by a puncture "because of the way it looked" and blamed it on my driving, refusing to replace the tire. It was not until 10,000 more miles were put on the tires that all four began "scalling" and the crack in the side wall grew, as in tread separation. In that time several other customers came in with the same type of problems and finally the manufacturer admitted that they had changed the composition of the tire formula. At first the tires were replaced at no cost to the customer, but when the number of problems grew, the manufacturer resorted to simply offering pro-ration presumably because the cost was becoming difficult to deal with, that's about when I showed up with all four tires failing. I hope something similar is not happening with the X1, and I don't pretend to know, I just don't like the sounds of multiple screen failures with "arching cracks" and such a mysterious occurrence being put on the customer.

I've been eying the X1 for a while, it's slim design and wonderful screen are very alluring. I love my Shearwaters, but have considered having one of each brand, one as secondary and one as primary for my rebreather, thinking that having my primary and secondary be of different brands would be the best kind of redundancy, significantly reducing the chance that the same malfunction or software bug would strike at the same time.

I have to admit that the way this is being handled leaves me with some reservations about the X1 and the way an issue might be handled if I were to buy one and be so unlucky as to have a component fail that can't be replaced. I am curious to see how and if this ever gets resolved.

Sincerely,
George

[LCF]

I have to say that, as someone who has been diving an X1 for almost a year, and who was thoroughly intrigued with it before that, this is the FIRST thread I've seen anywhere complaining about the unit. Yes, a few people have had display issues or other issues which have been quickly and completely taken care of by the company, but nobody has had a problem that they felt wasn't taken care of. I have my own minor kvetches about the gauge, but I couldn't live without it. If it broke through no manufacturing defect, I would swallow really hard and replace it.

I'm not saying Kirby is wrong. I'm saying the track record of the company taking care of issues is pretty good, on line at any rate. (I've had no issues at all with mine.)

[BASSMAN]

interesting thread.

[airsix]

This IS an interesting thread. I hope this post of mine doesn't upset my good friend Doug, but Gill Envy's last post has me going all CSI. One of the things that has always attracted me to the X1 is the zero-mechanics design. There are no physical buttons, dials, bezels, etc. And the internals are potted. So, mechanically the thing is a brick. I think that is awesome. However, burried inside that brick is a lithium battery. And when you charge it, it heats up. And expands. Now Newton taught us that Chris and Joe can't both ride shotgun at the same time. If you fill an aluminum box with a non-compressible something and then that something tries to increase in volume either Joe or Chris is going to get pushed out the window because the window is the weakest side of the box and there isn't room in the front seat for everybody who came to the party. Now even if the window is stong enough to hold back the raised internal pressure it could be under significant strain. Whack it on a desk and it could be game over. Now here's what I don't know: how much external volume change does the battery actually experience? Also, lithium rechargables permanently expand over their useful life due to deposit buildup, but again I don't know if the actual volume change is enough to even worry about. Lastly, Liquivision may have accommodated battery expansion in some way making this post... well, I'll stop wasting your time.

[BASSMAN]

Now Newton taught us that Chris and Joe can't both ride shotgun at the same time. If you fill an aluminum box with a non-compressible something and then that something tries to increase in volume either Joe or Chris is going to get pushed out the window because the window is the weakest side of the box and there isn't room in the front seat for everybody who came to the party. .

[LCF]

Doug can probably explain it better than I can, but the potting material is sort of a goo, and when you charge the device, some of the goo expands out through a vent hole in the side -- then, when it cools, it retracts.

[airsix]

Doug can probably explain it better than I can, but the potting material is sort of a goo, and when you charge the device, some of the goo expands out through a vent hole in the side -- then, when it cools, it retracts.

Fascinating! I'll be thinking about the physics for days! That means all the internal components are exposed to the full pressure swing of a dive. Absolutely fascinating. :smt038

[gcbryan]

I thought I posted this already but I must have hit something other than the submit button....

It would be interesting to hear the Liquivision explanation as to what will cause their computer to end up in the same condition as Kirby's computer. If it's a defect then it should be replaced. If it's not a defect then it's not a very robust product if it can't stand whatever happened in Kirby's house. Diving is an even rougher environment than Kirby's house.

If no one else is having a problem then it's just one instance why not replace it? If in fact there are so many damaged computers that it would affect the viability of the computer and therefore can't be replaced and many of them are deemed to be user fault then maybe it's not a robust computer which people need to know as well.

The manufacturer has a right to not replace something that is outside of the warranty limitations but consumers also have a right to not buy an expensive computer that can't handle a little rough handling. It's not like he dropped a dive light when the bulb was hot and is asking for a replacement bulb.

If the computer was actually driven over by a car then ...disregard this post.

[Kirby]

Thanks for all your input. So far, lets see.... I have been called a liar and a thief, compared to a shoplifter..... and correct me if I'm wrong, also heard that my computer had sustained substantial external damage, not just a screen display crack.

When I sent the computer back for evaluation, it was fully functional except for the crack in the screen. the edge of the crack was so slightly offset you could barely feel it with the edge of your fingernail.

I suppose it is possible that somehow the computer was crushed beyond recognition during the return process, but that is not the condition it was in when I sent it back. I would appreciate a third party examination of the computer, starting with a picture showing the substantial damage that was incurred to the computer by my abuse.

It may be noted by all reading this post, that I have not demanded my computer be replaced at not charge. I was offered a replacement computer for $1050.00. Considering the sticker price of the new computer, I do not feel this to be unreasonable, and am saving my money so I can buy a new computer ASAP. I do not keep this much money lying around my house.

I have misgivings about the computers design, and would like to be reassured that I would not be flushing another pile of money down the drain.

Was any of the "crash" impact testing done with a charger attached? I suspect if a fall was the cause that this contributed.

I had the integrity to assume responsibility for the damage that occured to the computer, but honestly am not sure that it was even caused by external traumatic force.

How many computers have had to be replaced to date due to cracks in the screen? Why was the case design changed from the first computer I received to the second?

I really love the computer. I am not feeling real warm and fuzzy about the way they seem to be responding to this discussion.

Kirby Pollard

[Sounder]

Ok, let's be perfectly open and honest here...

It is EXTREMELY RARE that Liquivision refuses to replace a piece of product which has experienced a defect. Please do all the internet searching you wish - you will find that Liquivision's response to customer problems and concerns is second to none. When there is an issue with an X1, it is typically repaired or replaced immediately. Again, the thermal glass issue has been identified and addressed. All computers which experienced a thermal crack have been, and will be, replaced immediately. Thermal cracking is easily identifiable and is absolutely covered under warranty. To be clear, again, this issue has been addressed and fixed and all computers which have this issue are being replaced immediately.

Kirby's computer proved to be the exception to the rule. An impact of this magnitude, in my time with Liquivision, is unprecedented. The impact was not due to charging, to potting gel expansion, or to anything else of the sort. It was not due to ANY manufacturer defect. The impact was due to a hammer-like force being applied directly to the screen of the unit. Whether that was his niece and/or other children playing in his office without his supervision and breaking his computer before replacing it on his desk, or something else, it was an extremely substantial impact which created the damage. An impact, I estimate, no dive computer on the market would have survived without significant damage. While the damage is the first of it's kind, it should be noted that the X1 in question is STILL functioning perfectly fine, despite the extreme abuse. In thousands of computers and prototypes, and in over two years of production and testing of prototypes, this was new. Perhaps, if this is the most harsh environment an X1 has ever been exposed to, we should have Kirby test our next generation of prototypes by simply charging them on his desk of horrors. Even divers around the world we specifically asked to "abuse the unit and report back with your findings," including some divers from this board, and the independent lab which was purposefully attempting to damage the face and ruin the computer's functionality (through direct screen-impact tests and a gauntlet of other physical abuses on the unit), didn't cause the level of damage Kirby's desk inflicted and the X1 continued through the testing, passing each and every abusive test with flying colors.

If you are planning to buy an X1, and believe you may cause as much damage as a hammer-to-the-screen would, please insure it with a private insurance company against mishandling. If you are buying and X1 and believe you may cause more trauma to an X1 than the CE 13319 certification testing did, please insure it with a private insurance company against mishandling. Abuse as is outlined in this thread is not, and will not be, covered by the warranty.

If someone interested in purchasing an X1 would like a demonstration on the durability of the X1 dive computer, a la what John Rawlings described from his visit to the booth at DEMA (flinging hot, and cold, X1s into the air and having them land on concrete), please contact me via PM.

[RedOne]

Uhhh! The damage is already done. As I said before I was impressed with this computer by diving with the buddy who has it deep into Mexican caves. He had some dead pixel issues but company replaced it very quickly and he is quite happy with the unit.
Reading this thread I’ll just wait and see if there are more cracks out there.

[4ster]

I was thinking about purchasing an X1, but not now. This moved me off the fence.

[ManLee]

[quote="Sounder"]Ok, let's be perfectly open and honest here...

In thousands of computers and prototypes, and in over two years of production and testing of prototypes, this was new. Perhaps, if this is the most harsh environment an X1 has ever been exposed to, we should have Kirby test our next generation of prototypes by simply charging them on his desk of horrors. Even divers around the world we specifically asked to "abuse the unit and report back with your findings," including some divers from this board, and the independent lab which was purposefully attempting to damage the face and ruin the computer's functionality (through direct screen-impact tests and a gauntlet of other physical abuses on the unit), didn't cause the level of damage Kirby's desk inflicted and the X1 continued through the testing, passing each and every abusive test with flying colors.

If you are planning to buy an X1, and believe you may cause as much damage as a hammer-to-the-screen would, please insure it with a private insurance company against mishandling. If you are buying and X1 and believe you may cause more trauma to an X1 than the CE 13319 certification testing did, please insure it with a private insurance company against mishandling. Abuse as is outlined in this thread is not, and will not be, covered by the warranty.

quote]


A statement like this regarding extreme abuse during testing with out any problems just makes Kirby's case.

Send me an X1. I'll hit it once with a hammer. If it looks anything like Kirbys I'll buy It.

If we're being perfectly honest the two computers would have similar damage but I doubt they would.

[Tangfish]

Where is the X1 in question as of now? Kirby, do you have it in your possession?

[gcbryan]

Upon reflection there is one aspect to this that doesn't ring true for me.

If I had a computer that had been thrown around a parking lot and didn't crack and if my computer had only fallen from a bookcase 3 feet onto my wooden desk and did crack I would be beyond upset if the company suggested that I must have hit it with a hammer.

I would not be talking about buying another computer from the company or talking about $1,000 being a reasonable offer. I wouldn't be talking about realizing that I would have to pay something.

People react differently and I don't know that we know all the facts (perhaps on both sides) but I know what my reaction would be and it wouldn't be to talk about possibly buying another computer from the company unless something a little more drastic did happen in the first place.

No offense Kirby but once these things are on a discussion board you have to expect a certain amount of discussion and since I did post in a favorable light regarding certain aspects of this situation I feel it only fair that I make these comments upon closer reflection. I still have no definite opinion of whether it should be replaced or not since that requires knowing more of the facts than I'll likely to be privy to. I would just shut up but after the cat's been let out of the bag so to speak there's no point in that.

[Gill Envy]

yeah, that could be it, Kirby could be playing us all. I don't know Kirby, I wasn't there either, but from communications with him via PM, if he's being dishonest in his posts it sound more like he is being poised and holding back his angst and vitriol publicly. Some people have more tact than others, and if in fact he is being above board about what happened, it is out of tact that he is not going totally ballistic. It also sounds like he is a real fan of the X1.

Purely as a business decision, since there are several other cracked screens that have cropped up and been covered under warranty, IMHO, it's best for business to err on the side of generous in this case. Saying with absolute certainty that the screen cracked from "gross mishandling" is impossible, and if Liquivision is wrong, they will never hear the end of it. All you need in this market is one really pissed off customer going around "spreading the news" tactfully and whatever it would have cost to simply cover the item is lost many times over in lost customers. No one will ever know what happened, even the customer claims not knowing. This only leaves the rest of us feeling uncertain about the product and worried about what might happen to us in s similar scenario... it's just bad for business to not just cover the unit.

On the other hand, Apple had a screen cracking problem on their i-pod Nanno early on, which they touted for it's thinness and durability as well. They could afford to piss some customers off because the product is so popular and widely distributed, they claimed abuse just like this and quietly started manufacturing them with thicker screens and viola, the incidence virtually disappeared.

a question for Kirby to ask, is his computer from the same batch or have the same parts as the others that have cracked? If so, game over.

George

Upon reflection there is one aspect to this that doesn't ring true for me.

If I had a computer that had been thrown around a parking lot and didn't crack and if my computer had only fallen from a bookcase 3 feet onto my wooden desk and did crack I would be beyond upset if the company suggested that I must have hit it with a hammer.

I would not be talking about buying another computer from the company or talking about $1,000 being a reasonable offer. I wouldn't be talking about realizing that I would have to pay something.

People react differently and I don't know that we know all the facts (perhaps on both sides) but I know what my reaction would be and it wouldn't be to talk about possibly buying another computer from the company unless something a little more drastic did happen in the first place.

No offense Kirby but once these things are on a discussion board you have to expect a certain amount of discussion and since I did post in a favorable light regarding certain aspects of this situation I feel it only fair that I make these comments upon closer reflection. I still have no definite opinion of whether it should be replaced or not since that requires knowing more of the facts than I'll likely to be privy to. I would just shut up but after the cat's been let out of the bag so to speak there's no point in that.

[Tangfish]

We can speculate till the cows come home..... However, the quickest way for this matter to be cleared up is for whomever has the X1 in their possession to snap some good photos of it from all sides and post them to this thread. Until that happens, we're all just speculating. Certainly, snapping and posting a few photos is MUCH less work than a continuation of this back and forth would be, for either side. Right?!

[spatman]

[Sounder]

The computer in question did not experience a thermal crack. Thermal cracks are very easy to distinguish and this is simply not the case with this unit. I, personally, examined the unit as did our lead engineer. We both agreed this was not damage due to thermal crack or thermal stress combined with an impact as was described in the local thread. The owner claims he did not witness the damage occur, but he left the computer charging and it fell 1 meter onto a wooden desk. The dealer at Tacoma Scuba (who sold the unit) examined the unit when it was returned to his store and noticed a depression on the face of the unit, which was also noticed by the lead engineer who examined the unit upon its return to Liquivision. Thermal cracks have never exhibited any indentation.

The dealer at Tacoma Scuba says he was told that a child had broken the computer while left unattended with it in the owner's office, and the dealer has said he will confirm this account. This information is different from the description of the incident given by the owner, who did not even contest this different version of events when confronted with it. Additionally, the owner has accepted the offer of replacing the unit at a substantial discount due Liquivision's sympathy to these circumstances.

We at Liquivision pride ourselves on the top-shelf level of customer service we offer to our owners, our dealers, and our future owners. This has been demonstrated time and time again, and has been discussed at length on internet forums. This level of customer care will not change as it is a value we hold dear in our company.

The X1 has earned the CE rating after being subjected to several physical tests and passing all of them with flying colors. One of these tests involves a "beveled hammer" of sorts (my terminology, not the official description), specifically designed to test the durability of dive computer screens, being dropped onto the screen more than once. The X1 passed this series of deliberate impacts on the screen each time.

While the X1 is a very robust and durable unit, gross mishandling is not covered by the warranty. The new information that a child had damaged the computer combined with the engineer's impressions of the physical damage to the computer confirmed our suspicions that the computer had experienced gross mishandling. Seeing a computer with damage similar to what this unit sustained is extremely rare - I have personally never seen a unit with damage like this. Even test divers from around world who tested units with the instructions "dive it, abuse it, and report back with your findings" have never returned a unit with damage like the computer in question had.

Liquivision prides itself on the quality of its products and stands behind its strong warranty. Any issue with a unit, including thermal cracks, that is not the result of gross mishandling has always been and will continue to be addressed in a prompt manner. Even in this situation where Liquivision believes that gross mishandling occurred, a customer friendly solution was offered to and accepted by the owner.

If anyone has questions regarding the X1, it's durability, or any other concern, please feel free to contact us at info@liquivision.ca. We're almost always accessible, and enjoy talking to those interested in our technology. Moreover, if you have or ever do experience a lack of customer service with our company, please email me directly and I will personally address the situation immediately.

-Doug