Good info for the DIR types

[Grateful Diver]

Lynne wrote

There are lots of good divers who aren't remotely DIR, but they'll have some things in common with us, I think: They'll have thought about the gear they use and how they arrange it, and they'll be pretty streamlined. They'll be efficient about what they take down with them and how they stow it. They'll have good buoyancy control and the ability not to silt out a dive site. They'll have good awareness of their gas consumption, and the ability to plan a dive and compare it with the available gas to see if it is feasible. When they dive as a buddy, they'll have good buddy awareness and clear, unambiguous communication. They'll have a good sense of where they are in the water, whether that's with respect to depth and time, or with respect to navigation.

After having just got off the phone with her and having a "frank and open discussion" of the topic, I'd like to respond. Pray tell, how can someone be "[not] remotely DIR" but still be the type of diver she describes? Let's see: gear nicely put together; good skills underwater; good buddy awareness -- all this and they "aren't remotely DIR?"

Simple ... because DIR doesn't describe skills, it describes an entire package that includes a precisely-defined skill set, a precisely-defined set of gear, AND a precisely-defined mindset. If you fall outside the parameters of any of those precise definitions you are ... by definition ... NOT DIR.

There's no "remotely" about it ... DIR is, by its own definition, holistic. It's like being pregnant ... you either are or you are not.

Lots of people who are not DIR, and have no interest in becoming DIR, have the skills Lynne described above.

Lots of us simply don't like labels, because we find them divisive ... and would prefer to be known simply as DIveR.

And FWIW - I've yet to see a DIR class that teaches you anything about navigation. I suppose cave courses must ... but in a way that's very specific to that diving environment.

FWIW2 - any graduate of my AOW class will, to one degree or another, possess the skills Lynne mentioned above ... and I do not teach DIR.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Nwbrewer]

Lynne wrote

There are lots of good divers who aren't remotely DIR, but they'll have some things in common with us, I think: They'll have thought about the gear they use and how they arrange it, and they'll be pretty streamlined. They'll be efficient about what they take down with them and how they stow it. They'll have good buoyancy control and the ability not to silt out a dive site. They'll have good awareness of their gas consumption, and the ability to plan a dive and compare it with the available gas to see if it is feasible. When they dive as a buddy, they'll have good buddy awareness and clear, unambiguous communication. They'll have a good sense of where they are in the water, whether that's with respect to depth and time, or with respect to navigation.

After having just got off the phone with her and having a "frank and open discussion" of the topic, I'd like to respond. Pray tell, how can someone be "[not] remotely DIR" but still be the type of diver she describes? Let's see: gear nicely put together; good skills underwater; good buddy awareness -- all this and they "aren't remotely DIR?"

Simple ... because DIR doesn't describe skills, it describes an entire package that includes a precisely-defined skill set, a precisely-defined set of gear, AND a precisely-defined mindset. If you fall outside the parameters of any of those precise definitions you are ... by definition ... NOT DIR.

There's no "remotely" about it ... DIR is, by its own definition, holistic. It's like being pregnant ... you either are or you are not.

Lots of people who are not DIR, and have no interest in becoming DIR, have the skills Lynne described above.

Lots of us simply don't like labels, because we find them divisive ... and would prefer to be known simply as DIveR.

And FWIW - I've yet to see a DIR class that teaches you anything about navigation. I suppose cave courses must ... but in a way that's very specific to that diving environment.

FWIW2 - any graduate of my AOW class will, to one degree or another, possess the skills Lynne mentioned above ... and I do not teach DIR.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thanks Bob. Peter I this is one reason why I like the UTD name to describe the GUE/DIR way of diving. The DIR name is divisive by nature, (We're right, you must be wrong) and I believe it applies ONLY to those who are GUE trained, and buy into the whole package: The team mentality, SS everything, standard mixes, etc.

The UTD name (to me anyway) can be used to include Naui-tech, AG trained, and to some extent just the types of divers that Lynne described, those who have thought about thier gear, using at least a very similar setup to thier buddies, aspire to master thier in water skills, and believe in the team concept.

Jake

[dsteding]

Thanks Bob. Peter I this is one reason why I like the UTD name to describe the GUE/DIR way of diving. The DIR name is divisive by nature, (We're right, you must be wrong) and I believe it applies ONLY to those who are GUE trained, and buy into the whole package: The team mentality, SS everything, standard mixes, etc.

The UTD name (to me anyway) can be used to include Naui-tech, AG trained, and to some extent just the types of divers that Lynne described, those who have thought about thier gear, using at least a very similar setup to thier buddies, aspire to master thier in water skills, and believe in the team concept.

Jake

Good points Jake. As someone who dives that way, I care less about what it is called, but for the sake of positive marketing, I do think it is time to cast aside the DIR moniker.

For what it is worth, UTD to me isn't equated with GUE at all. It is more an outgrowth of the California DIR-trained divers, and in particular the 5thd-X (or "Breakthru Diving") crowd. I think GUE is getting beyond "DIR" and just calling it team diving, they are recognizing the issues and baggage associated with that.

The first time I saw "UTD" was on the Dive Matrix as a reference to a sub-forum, maybe a year and a half ago. It is going beyond that now, and if I had to make an educated guess, we'll see multiple instructors from different agencies teaching from a "UTD" perspective in the next year or two. I think that will mean something a bit more standard than what Lynne is referring to as the "not DIR" diver that has thought about their gear, has solid skills and dives as a team. UTD has its roots in DIR, just as the DIR equipment configuration has its roots in the Hogarthian configuration. But it is more than that, and hopefully it will transcend agencies and be something that can be picked up by instructors who believe in this approach to diving.

Think of UTD as DIR for the masses.

Bottom line is that if you've had some training from one of those instructors, you'll be on the same page as someone else that has had a similar training experience, and diving with them should be a fairly seamless thing to pick up. At the end of the day, that is one of the advantages of diving this way: quite simply, it is easier to get in the water and do dives with a wider range of people.

Note that I took fundies from GUE (Steve White here in Seattle) and found it incredibly beneficial, but then went with AG for tech, mostly because I really enjoyed his teaching style and knew I'd get tons out of the class. Because of this, I personally feel like I am way more in the "UTD" vein than the DIR vein these days, and I'm happy to promote the UTD moniker, especially if it brings some peace and harmony to our dive community.

At the end of the day, however, this is mostly pin-headed internet blather, the most important thing to do is get out there and dive. Something I plan to do soon.

[Sounder]

As someone who dives that way, I care less about what it is called, but for the sake of positive marketing, I do think it is time to cast aside the DIR moniker.

Amen!

[Nwbrewer]

So far I haven't broken out the long hose for a change... I hear that comes with solid food. Thought about a mask, once, when he "made like a fire hose." Bob, your beautiful framed picture of the clown fish narrowly escaped the flow.

Considering that the little bastards bit me, I wouldn't have minded in the least ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Man, I was reading back through this and for a second I thought Bob was talking about the kid biting him.....

Doug, that's basically what I was driving at. The first place I saw UTD was on DMX as well. I like it for a couple of reasons, it's non-divisive, it doesn't carry the old baggage, it better describes what the central philosiphy of this type of diving is, and it's not necessarily tech centric. I think those taking something like Bob's AOW could consider themselves UTD divers, even those with no aspications to go tech.

Sound like next week's Tweek is gonna be at the Muk, if my gear os back from service I'm going to come at and try and dive with you guys.

Jake

[Joshua Smith]

At the end of the day, that is one of the advantages of diving this way: quite simply, it is easier to get in the water and do dives with a wider range of people.

Really? As one of the people on the "not welcome" list, I'm having trouble with that statement, Doug. Even though I mostly dive with the crew of divers that I always dive with, I must say that I will dive with pretty much anybody, in whatever gear configuration they choose, as long as their head seems to be in the right place.

I dove with a lady a few weeks ago that has thousands of dives- she's very a very accomplished OC diver. I have no idea what her credentials/ certifying agency is- hell, for all I know, she doesn't even have an OW card. And her singles rig looked like something pretty much unrecognizable to the average UTD guy- she really had customized it in a way I'd never seen before- I really wish I had a picture of it. All the hose routing was neat and clean, but.....I can't even describe it. I laughed out loud when I saw it- she looked at me and asked what the problem was- I just grinned and told her I really liked her set up. I could tell right away that it was exactly the way she wanted it, and that it worked perfectly for her. And I'll bet you a beer that you wouldn't dive with her outside of CESA range, if even then.

My point is that UTD doesn't increase your pool of dive buddies, as far as I can tell.

[Dusty2]

Well said guys, UTD is a allot easier to digest than DIR and I think you are doing a good job of defining the differences. There is a middle ground and most of us fall in there somewhere.

[dsteding]

My point is that UTD doesn't increase your pool of dive buddies, as far as I can tell.

Let me clarify. It may not increase your pool, but when you dive with someone with similar training there is much less "ramp up" before you are on the same page. I've seen it traveling, I've seen it with people locally, and I do use it as a rough guide for who I'll do dives with.

Of course, I still have the usual hesitations and reservations associated with new dive buddies, but those will dissipate quicker with time in the water.

[ljjames]

UDT, NAUI, PADI, GUE, DIR, Etc..

No matter how gear is rigged, no matter how many cert cards and patches one has, a divers pool of buddies is limited only by ones own comfort level and experience, and what we _want_ out of a given dive.

[Joshua Smith]

We who run this board wish for all of the members to remember that the most important member is the brand-new diver. The next priority is probably the established diver looking to take the next step in their diving career. We should all focus on being supportive towards that person; and we seem to have a new one once a week. It's a slippery slope, but even if you're sure that the way YOU dive is the only way to go, please refrain from being too aggressive with the well intentioned suggestions.

I had forgotten this, but our fearless leader, Calvin, spelled this out quite well, over 2 years ago, HERE

Due to the fact that we frequently have questions regarding training, skills and instruction spread across the site, we've decided to give these postings a home on NWDC.

Discussion about equipment can still take place over at Gear Central, but if you'd like to ask questions about the use of that gear in the water or about how to pursue further instruction from your LDS or a private instructor in the area, here's the place to ask.

Now, there are a few ground rules here, designed to benefit the student/seeker of wisdom:

1) No unsolicited advice or advertisement for paid instruction. Please, no posts for classes or otherwise paid instruction by any instructor or shop affiliated with any certifying agency. Some posts, such as safety-related education (DAN, CPR, etc.) and/or free seminars may be okay. If in doubt, please contact a moderator before posting.

2) Present balanced information as fairly as possible. If you subscribe to a particular school of thought or certifying agency, don't present a holier-than-thou attitude about it here. We're here to provide as much information to the person asking the question as possible, so that they can make a wise decision for themselves. Unabashed persuasion is not welcome.

3) Remember your roots. Consider that all of us were wet behind the ears (get it?!) at one point, so reply with patience and understanding that some questions might have very obvious answers to some of us now - but at one point, we all wondered about the same things.

This forum is to be wholly for the benefit of the person seeking information and guidance from those who have more experience. It is the responsibility of the senior divers here to bend to the needs of the newbies with consideration and open-mindedness.

Although this is pinned in the "diving education" subforum, it applies to the site as a whole.

[Dusty2]

UDT, NAUI, PADI, GUE, DIR, Etc..

No matter how gear is rigged, no matter how many cert cards and patches one has, a divers pool of buddies is limited only by ones own comfort level and experience, and what we _want_ out of a given dive.

I agree totally. As long as a diver seems reasonably competent and level headed and has the appropriate gear for the dive and is interested in doing the type of dive I am planning he or she is welcome to tag along.

[Peter Guy]

Re the "UTD" name and it first showing up on DMX. Given this thread (and perhaps my posts) I think it is ironic that the person who coined the name, Unified Team Diving, is the person who often sits right across from me (but who is now working so that I can sit here posting on the 'net and remain unemployed).

[Grateful Diver]

I can see Doug's point about staying within your comfort zone ... and for a lot of people that means putting stringent restrictions on who you will or won't dive with (and why).

I can also see Nailer's point about inclusiveness ... diving's all about that, to my concern.

And I think that the amount of importance we put on each of those points pretty much defines how we choose dive and who we choose to dive with. It also, to a degree, defines the difficulties we seem to have communicating with each other on Internet forums. It boils down to personal priorities, and it's easy to assume that because something is a priority for us it should be for everyone else too.

I think about the dive buddies I would have missed out on if I hadn't broadened my own comfort zone, and it's one of the things that caused me to more or less stray away from the DIR/UTD path ... I didn't like the limitations.

Two of my favorite current (and fairly regular) dive buddies are both tech trained ... and fit Lynne's skills description to a "T" ... but would be nowhere near considered DIR. And I wouldn't want to give up diving with them for anything ... I also wouldn't hesitate trusting either one with my life.

Sure, it may have taken a little extra effort to understand the differences between their training and mine ... and make logical accommodations to both our approach to the dive plan and the execution of our dive ... but yanno what ... every time we dive together I come out of the water thinking it was worth the effort.

It all boils down to what's important to you ... and we each really have to decide that on our own.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Pez7378]

At the end of the day, that is one of the advantages of diving this way: quite simply, it is easier to get in the water and do dives with a wider range of people.

And I'll bet you a beer that you wouldn't dive with her outside of CESA range, if even then.

My point is that UTD doesn't increase your pool of dive buddies, as far as I can tell.

I'll bet you two beers you wouldn't buddy up with someone for a technical dive, without first evalutating their skills within Recreational depths. I get your point Josh but I'm not sure it's a very good arguement.

[Joshua Smith]

At the end of the day, that is one of the advantages of diving this way: quite simply, it is easier to get in the water and do dives with a wider range of people.

And I'll bet you a beer that you wouldn't dive with her outside of CESA range, if even then.

My point is that UTD doesn't increase your pool of dive buddies, as far as I can tell.

I'll bet you two beers you wouldn't buddy up with someone for a technical dive, without first evalutating their skills within Recreational depths. I get your point Josh but I'm not sure it's a very good arguement.

That would depend on the dive and the potential buddy, but almost nobody would do a tech dive with total stranger. I would have no problem going to 130 fsw with just about anyone, however.

[Grateful Diver]

That would depend on the dive and the potential buddy, but almost nobody would do a tech dive with total stranger. I would have no problem going to 130 fsw with just about anyone, however.

That's what I mean by personal comfort zone ... I'll dive with anyone, but our first dive together will be reasonably shallow (probably not deeper than 40-60 feet, depending on the dive site). Once I've seen you dive, then we can talk about something deeper together.

I'm gonna be looking for reasonable buoyancy control and buddy awareness before I go deep with anyone.

For tech diving, it gets a little pickier ... we're going to have to agree on a dive plan, deco schedule, contingency plan, and what gases we're breathing ... at a minimum.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[airsix]

I think it is ironic that the person who coined the name, Unified Team Diving, is the person who often sits right across from me...

Well that right there is pretty cool! The name is catching on and spreading, which I think is great. I hope it eventually eclipses and replaces the name "DIR". I look forward to the day that somebody says to me "There's this cool system called Unified Team Diving" and I can smile, knowing that one of my favorite people to dive with is the lady who came up with the name. That's awesome.

-Ben

[cardiver]

I don't know.......I still thing that "Unified Team Diving" sounds like an Olympic event.

[airsix]

I don't know.......I still thing that "Unified Team Diving" sounds like an Olympic event.

Well they call "curling" an Olympic event, but I think it's a bicep exercise.
We park in driveways and drive on parkways.
It's a wacky world but I still like the name UTD.

That mask is perfect by the way. Thank you very much! I already have several hours on it.

-Ben

[LCF]

I don't know.......I still thing that "Unified Team Diving" sounds like an Olympic event.

No, that's "Synchronized perfect trim diving", which is what Steding's working on :-)

[CaptnJack]

Really? As one of the people on the "not welcome" list, I'm having trouble with that statement, Doug.

You were welcome at the Tuesday pipeline dealio (last week) but missed it. And are still welcome, just BYO-Buddy please. The reasons for BYOB are varied but mostly our comfort level (not yours) with RBs and associated stuff in general. But that doesn't mean you can't join us, we usually eat afterwards BTW. Love that MX Taqueria on Ambaum Ave above 3Tree, mmmm.

[CaptnJack]

For tech diving, it gets a little pickier ... we're going to have to agree on a dive plan, deco schedule, contingency plan, and what gases we're breathing ... at a minimum.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I have buddied with my friends buddies for tech dives before. Friend of a friend deal. All the schedules, contingencies, gases etc. are matched by common training. I actually have more difficulty matching with "UTD" divers (some not all) in the slightly shallower range (80-120ft) due to a philosphical split on standard gases between 30/30 and 25/25. I don't really use either except for rare dives anyway.

[dsteding]

Really? As one of the people on the "not welcome" list, I'm having trouble with that statement, Doug.

You were welcome at the Tuesday pipeline dealio (last week) but missed it. And are still welcome, just BYO-Buddy please. The reasons for BYOB are varied but mostly our comfort level (not yours) with RBs and associated stuff in general. But that doesn't mean you can't join us, we usually eat afterwards BTW. Love that MX Taqueria on Ambaum Ave above 3Tree, mmmm.

I second that, Josh. RBs aren't in my comfort zone for reasons we've discussed, but you and your buddies are always welcome to come on out to our Tweeks.

And, if you break out the OC, let's go dive together again, that last one was fun.

[Grateful Diver]

Really? As one of the people on the "not welcome" list, I'm having trouble with that statement, Doug.

You were welcome at the Tuesday pipeline dealio (last week) but missed it. And are still welcome, just BYO-Buddy please. The reasons for BYOB are varied but mostly our comfort level (not yours) with RBs and associated stuff in general. But that doesn't mean you can't join us, we usually eat afterwards BTW. Love that MX Taqueria on Ambaum Ave above 3Tree, mmmm.

Hey Josh ... let's go hook up with these guys sometime. I'll certainly buddy up with ya ... I'll just bring my own bailout bottle (I have dived with RB'ers a few times in the past).

I think they're serious about everybody being welcomed ... let's give 'em the benefit of the doubt and go for it sometime.

Besides, I've wanted an excuse to dive with ya.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[airsix]

I actually have more difficulty matching with "UTD" divers (some not all) in the slightly shallower range (80-120ft) due to a philosphical split on standard gases between 30/30 and 25/25. I don't really use either except for rare dives anyway.

That sounds like "I'm DIR, not UTD". What is your distinction between UTD and DIR? DIR = GUE and anything else (5thD-x, NTec, etc.) = UTD? My vision was UTD encompassing all of the above.

-Ben