Northwest Dive Club

Lavachickie, you are absolutely right that there is no hidden scheme to assimilate divers. Its more about what skills do you want to have as a diver. Wanting to be able to maintain my position in the water without a struggle, move back, forward, up, down, in a relaxed way. I'm not perfect at it, but I have been started down the path. Brian and Jeanna helped us get our gear set up right so we are not fighting that, and how to recognize when that same gear was making us wonky. Have you ever felt stress or caused someone stress because they could not see you or you could not see them, that's a part of the training. It's not like you have to fly in formation either, just a few little things to think about so you put your buddy at ease. At the end we shot a bag and made an ascent while winding the string up, in control. No way I could have done that before, I was shocked. Then there are all the skills you did in open water. Try doing that without losing control of your bouyancy. They will show you how, it's not easy, but you can do it, and it makes a lot of sense to learn how before the s*** hits the proverbial fan.

The gear requirements are few, long hose, necklaced backup, blade fins. Thats what I have, thats what I wanted to learn to use. I got more than I paid for.

I think every sport has folks that for whatever reason, need to think of their way of doing things to be in some way superior, I also like to fish. I learned to fish with a fly rod, and found many flyfishers to have this attitude. I don't know, maybe it comes with you will probably NOT learn to do this well unless you PUT THAT SPINNING ROD IN THE CLOSET! Then the inner voices start talking to others through you. I'm pretty sure I will NOT get the hang of boltsnaps unless I STOP USING BOTH HANDS! Go ahead and dopeslap me if I ever say something condescending about your, well, anything.

BASSMAN wrote:
So it seems that I'm slowly drifting towards UTD or tecreational diver.

No it means you are drifting towards a streamline Hogarthian (spell check) harness. people just don't get it. UTD is not DIR Get that out of your heads people. they are not the same, they both just use HOG style harnesses. If people don't get that concept I give up.

Even I get it.

Jeez, you leave for a couple of days to teach an Intro to Tech class in British Columbia and look what happens!

Yes, UTD has it's roots in DIR (whatever that means anymore ) , but this class is called "Essentials of Recreational Diving".

It's simply a class that teaches the foundational skills that are applicable to any kind of diving. Of course since it is a UTD class there is a team diving element to it, but really the class is about helping the diver achieve a new level in their own diving skills and knowledge, regardless of whether they're interested in team diving or not.

Don't forget that we all share a common reason for diving....fun. If you're more comfortable and confident in your own skills and abilities, you'll enjoy your dives more. Essentials is one of several options a diver has to help them become a better diver.

If it were a fully DIR class, we would've named it "Essentials of DIR"

BDub wrote:If it were a fully DIR class, we would've named it "Essentials of DIR"

Have I mentioned I HATE koolaid?!?

BDub wrote: this class is called "Essentials of Recreational Diving".

It's simply a class that teaches the foundational skills that are applicable to any kind of diving.

Well then it should be called ERD training.

What is GUE an acronym for?

BASSMAN wrote:Well then it should be called ERD training.

But then what happens if someone takes Tech 1, or Rec 2, or Overhead Protocols? Create an agency name for each course?

BASSMAN wrote:What is GUE an acronym for?

GUE is Global Underwater Explorers, a DIR training agency

ktb wrote:

BDub wrote:If it were a fully DIR class, we would've named it "Essentials of DIR"

Have I mentioned I HATE koolaid?!?

I think you did, as you were getting your initiation tattoo

BDub wrote:

ktb wrote:

BDub wrote:If it were a fully DIR class, we would've named it "Essentials of DIR"

Have I mentioned I HATE koolaid?!?

I think you did, as you were getting your initiation tattoo

No, I don't think I complained until you made me get that second, back-up tattoo. Sometimes redundancy is a bitch.

Would that be a, on your lower-back" tattoo?

BASSMAN wrote:

BDub wrote: this class is called "Essentials of Recreational Diving".

It's simply a class that teaches the foundational skills that are applicable to any kind of diving.

Well then it should be called ERD training.

What is GUE an acronym for?

this Essentials class is just one class in a larger curriculum. you can call the class ERD, but it wouldn't apply to the whole training progression. it would be akin to called NAUI's or PADI's entire training "AOW".

Okay so is GUE and UTD related to each other?

GUE Fundamentals vs. UTD Essentials or UTD Fundamentals

Global Underwater Explorers

BASSMAN wrote:Okay so is GUE and UTD related to each other?

GUE Fundamentals vs. UTD Essentials or UTD Fundamentals

No. But Yes.

I'm standing on the sidelines with my face in my hands. I'm kind of amazed that we're having this conversation.

DIR is a diving philosophy, or school of thought.

GUE and UTD are training agencies that teach Team diving.

The main difference between them is that Brian and Jeanna teach for UTD. And aside from being awesome people, and friends of mine- not once, ever, anywhere, have I ever seen or heard any of their students offering unsolicited advice by telling someone else how to dive, or that they're "Doing It Wrong" or preaching on a street corner passing out pamphlets.

GUE was the first agency teaching "DIR" diving, which is a multifaceted approach involving standardized equipment, standard gases, standardized protocols, heavy emphasis on strong personal skills, and diving as a team. Andrew Georgitsis was training director for GUE for a number of years. He had some differences of vision with the GUE council as to how the training ought to evolve. AG and GUE parted ways, and AG eventually started his own agency, promoting the teaching of what is still a very DIR type of diving. There ARE small differences between the agencies in how gear is configured, on the choice of standard gases, and on how deco is calculated. But the bottom line is that GUE and UTD trained divers can easily operate together after a brief conversation to reconcile those differences. They are far more alike than either is like the mainstream training agencies.

GUE Fundamentals is a four (or more) day class that focuses on personal skills (buoyancy, trim, position, emergency procedures and bag shooting). It also includes a Nitrox course and some Rescue skills. There are fairly strict equipment requirements -- one must be in a full Hog rig. UTD Essentials is more similar to the GUE Primer. It's a class to introduce skills. The equipment requirements are not as extensive. Most importantly, Essentials is not a pass/fail course -- it is a workshop to show you some skills and how they can make your diving more relaxed, more fun, and probably safer.

One of the biggest differences for us in the PNW is that we have two active and very well-liked UTD instructors here. To take a GUE class, one must either travel or bring in an instructor. Although Guy Shockey, up in BC (who is a heck of a nice guy) has said he'd be more than willing to come down and teach GUE classes here for anyone who wants them, it's still easier to book a class with Brian and Jeanna.

Where the two agencies get much more unlike is in their more advanced (technical and cave) curricula. But by the time you get that far, you probably know enough about each to make your own decisions.

Joshua Smith wrote:I'm standing on the sidelines with my face in my hands. I'm kind of amazed that we're having this conversation.

+1

spatman wrote:

Joshua Smith wrote:I'm standing on the sidelines with my face in my hands. I'm kind of amazed that we're having this conversation.

+1

+1 as well. I'm somewhat amazed, although less so because this is NWDC, after all, that it's a civil conversation. Y'all are the best!

BASSMAN wrote:Okay so is GUE and UTD related to each other?

GUE Fundamentals vs. UTD Essentials or UTD Fundamentals

I'm having a hard time believing that these questions are sincere attempts to gather knowlege, to be honest.

Keith, you actually joined this site a few months before I did- heck, I bet you've been diving longer than I have. In all this time, are you seriously telling us that you have NO IDEA what this is all about?

Just for the sake of bandwagon hopping...

Joshua Smith wrote:

BASSMAN wrote:Okay so is GUE and UTD related to each other?

GUE Fundamentals vs. UTD Essentials or UTD Fundamentals

I'm having a hard time believing that these questions are sincere attempts to gather knowlege, to be honest.

Keith, you actually joined this site a few months before I did- heck, I bet you've been diving longer than I have. In all this time, are you seriously telling us that you have NO IDEA what this is all about?

Um... believe it. Or at least some of it. I can tell you that as a new diver who has been asking for input/reactions about UTD from those around me, that there ARE people who are professionals and have been diving about as long as I've been alive who are... I don't know the word I'm looking for. Unclear? Uninformed? Unaware? Confused? Disinterested thus causing one of the former? I was told UTD Essentials wasn't a good idea, and further wasn't even appropriate for a rec diver. This was likely just lack of information, nothing more nefarious.

I don't know Keith so perhaps his question was just a well placed prompt, but I can tell you the resulting explanation is helpful information for some, regardless.

Sockmonkey wrote:Just for the sake of bandwagon hopping...

Now THAT is something I can use. Right-click-save-attach to meeting minutes.

This thread is yet another victim of shoot-first-ask-questions-later baloney-fire.




Note to viewer: This image is not intended to convey a political message. Symbolism of a political nature is not the intent of this posting. The characters portrayed above are not representative of a political affiliation and simply represent asses because they are funny. However, asses performing a baloney assault may or may not also be a metaphor applicable to recent events. The author of this post neither confirms nor denies any such intent.

lavachickie wrote:

Joshua Smith wrote:

BASSMAN wrote:Okay so is GUE and UTD related to each other?

GUE Fundamentals vs. UTD Essentials or UTD Fundamentals

I'm having a hard time believing that these questions are sincere attempts to gather knowlege, to be honest.

Keith, you actually joined this site a few months before I did- heck, I bet you've been diving longer than I have. In all this time, are you seriously telling us that you have NO IDEA what this is all about?

Um... believe it. Or at least some of it. I can tell you that as a new diver who has been asking for input/reactions about UTD from those around me, that there ARE people who are professionals and have been diving about as long as I've been alive who are... I don't know the word I'm looking for. Unclear? Uninformed? Unaware? Confused? Disinterested thus causing one of the former? All I can say is a pro I spoke with felt UTD Essentials wasn't a good idea, and further wasn't even appropriate for a rec diver. I have no idea if that was motivated by a desire to protect turf, or misinformation, or...?

I don't know Keith so perhaps his question was just a well placed prompt, but I can tell you the resulting explanation is helpful information for some, regardless.

WARNING: Over two paragraphs

As far as I am concerned all the training in this thread is sound and follows great philosophy. I rock a long hose, frog kick, and even back up. I researched much of the philosophy of DIR and agree with much of it. I did not take the UTD training but can see the benefit of it to the newer diver that is interested in team diving. As for ERD (essentials for recreational diving) I assume that this is very beneficial to the person trying to learn to be a better diver. I mean there are really only two ways...
DIVE DIVE DIVE, Absorb info Absorb info Absorb info
Take Additional training

EITHER WAY IS FINE!

I just dove with people and everyone I dive with I try and take something from that experience. Some divers I take some Dos and some divers I take some donts. I dove over 100 times my first year and treated every dive as one in which I can polish my skills as a diver. My thoughts were "I dont want people that I dive with to think of me as a liability, or someone they feel as though they need to babysit. Rather I want to be on my game and feel confident that not only will I not be a burden but someone with a calm demeaner where should something go wrong I would not succumb to panic.
Doing It Right = Don't ever stop learning, Improve your knowledge, Resist being a know-it-all

We have all met people that try and push their way of doing things as the "only" way, SCUBA or other activities. These people do more damage than good, and should just allow people to ask, pursue, or desire the information before assuming that they can dictate someone's direction by pushing it on them.


my 2psi

MY WAY IS THE BESTEST WAY TO DIVE!!!

















I was actually suprised when I followed the GUE link posted, lots of info I didn't know about there training and equipment config's...

lavachickie wrote:

Joshua Smith wrote:I'm having a hard time believing that these questions are sincere attempts to gather knowlege, to be honest.

Keith, you actually joined this site a few months before I did- heck, I bet you've been diving longer than I have. In all this time, are you seriously telling us that you have NO IDEA what this is all about?

Um... believe it. Or at least some of it.

josh isn't asking a general question, he's asking keith specifically.

you're missing a lot of context, lavachickie. keith and josh have both been members of nwdc since 2006, during which time there have been countless threads about DIR training. some of these these were, shall we say, "heated".

lavachickie wrote:I was told UTD Essentials wasn't a good idea, and further wasn't even appropriate for a rec diver. This was likely just lack of information, nothing more nefarious.

you are always welcome to post questions here, and PM specific users to help you gain the information you seek.

scottsax wrote:

spatman wrote:

Joshua Smith wrote:I'm standing on the sidelines with my face in my hands. I'm kind of amazed that we're having this conversation.

+1

+1 as well. I'm somewhat amazed, although less so because this is NWDC, after all, that it's a civil conversation. Y'all are the best!

Civility Scott? What part of shut up did you not understand?

Oh and your diving... you're doing it all wrong. Here have a pamphlet that explains how sucktastic your diving is. Now move along because you're crowding my street corner.

-Eric