Why AOW
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straitscuba
- Aquaphile
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:43 pm
Why AOW
looking for your reasons for taking (or not taking) advanced scuba courses.
I guess it would depend mostly on the diver and who the instructor is going to be.
I have been diving for the better part of 5 years now and I am still only
OW certified I have loged well over 150 dives and some have been at night a Advanced Ooen Water dive and a few to 100 feet or below a nother dive from Advanced Open Water .
I have also loged some half dozen or so solo dives but these are at a dive site I know like the back of my hand with no snags or over head isues to deal with .
I know my skills and know my limets and never dive beyound eather
I am by no means bragging or saying that Advanced open Water is not needed
I have dove with "Advanced Open Water " divers and beyound that have no concept of there skills or limets . but yet they have the cert cards to prove they are say "Rescue Diver"
I know a diver that started the smae time I began diving and by the time we were diving for 6 months was all ready a "Master Diver" at least he has the cert for master diver I would say he was a ok diver at best
not counting class dives he has loged about 60 dives
I have not taken my advanced or Rescue corse for the simple reason
I live in a area where there just are no Instructors our LDS went out of business 3 years ago my work schudel would make it realy hard to go to Portland or any place else for that matter to atend class.
I know it is inportant to keep going in my diving education and I know it is more then time I take a nother corse in diving but the simple truth is most of the classes out there are just like renting a dive budy
I am sorry for any of the instructors on here that may take offence to this but I do not think the " Advaced Open Water " class offered by most of the instructors is worth what is charged for it,
for the instructors I have offended I am sorry
but perhaps you should take a look at what you teach in your Advanced Class and improve on it from there
most of what is tought in most " Advanced Open Water" I think a Diver should know and be profishent at long befor thinking about takeing a advanced clas or beyond
once againe i do not mean to offend any one I was just shareing my fellings on this subject
Sparky
I have been diving for the better part of 5 years now and I am still only
OW certified I have loged well over 150 dives and some have been at night a Advanced Ooen Water dive and a few to 100 feet or below a nother dive from Advanced Open Water .
I have also loged some half dozen or so solo dives but these are at a dive site I know like the back of my hand with no snags or over head isues to deal with .
I know my skills and know my limets and never dive beyound eather
I am by no means bragging or saying that Advanced open Water is not needed
I have dove with "Advanced Open Water " divers and beyound that have no concept of there skills or limets . but yet they have the cert cards to prove they are say "Rescue Diver"
I know a diver that started the smae time I began diving and by the time we were diving for 6 months was all ready a "Master Diver" at least he has the cert for master diver I would say he was a ok diver at best
not counting class dives he has loged about 60 dives
I have not taken my advanced or Rescue corse for the simple reason
I live in a area where there just are no Instructors our LDS went out of business 3 years ago my work schudel would make it realy hard to go to Portland or any place else for that matter to atend class.
I know it is inportant to keep going in my diving education and I know it is more then time I take a nother corse in diving but the simple truth is most of the classes out there are just like renting a dive budy
I am sorry for any of the instructors on here that may take offence to this but I do not think the " Advaced Open Water " class offered by most of the instructors is worth what is charged for it,
for the instructors I have offended I am sorry
but perhaps you should take a look at what you teach in your Advanced Class and improve on it from there
most of what is tought in most " Advanced Open Water" I think a Diver should know and be profishent at long befor thinking about takeing a advanced clas or beyond
once againe i do not mean to offend any one I was just shareing my fellings on this subject
Sparky
A Smart Man
Learns from his mistakes
A Wise Man
Learns from the mistakes of those that have gone before him
Learns from his mistakes
A Wise Man
Learns from the mistakes of those that have gone before him
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nice-diver
- Compulsive Diver
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:24 am
hey sparky i salute you dude 
i too am a ow cert diver with about 40 dives on my belt, i dig thru this site and read about accidents and close calls and i will never be a back seat driver for any of them since true details allways seem to be a rare item, but about a year ago i was on a charter boat in the keys and chatting with the d.m. about the spiegel grove and what were requirements from there company to dive it, his reply allways stuck with me he said you needed to be a aow cert diver with at least 100 dives and half of those to 100 feet. when i asked why he replied well you can have 6 dives and be aow certified. your aow cert does not mean you know how to dive any better
there definitely seems like most every sport to be "extreme" or have a high ranking asap. you dont wake up one day and decide to climb k2 those people die! or put there rescuers in peril. i watch it on tv or read about in variuos magazines all the time. one of the most recent was 11 people losing there lives on everest, 2 of them were trying to save lives ( one local ) a true tragedy since mosat of those people did not deserve to be there, and when i say deserve they have not spent the required years honing there craft, learning from true masters, and slowly working up there skill set. instead they paid tens of thousands to a company and just expected to be taken care of.
i feel this is the same in our sport, here we are strapping on 50-70 pounds of steel and gear and dropping to the depth of a ten story building to poke around. even my instructor said she would advise taking your aow right after your ow cert. that seemed very odd to me since that doubles my allowed depth with only a few more dives under me. i have been putting off my aow for the reason of wanting to be proficient in the water and comfortable. i dive with some great divers and am very happy to learn from them.
iam not here slamming those who go thru certs one after another that is not my point at all. we are all big boys and girls and we make our own descions in life and i respect that in all of us here. i guess my suprise lyes with the agencies allowing this, i know the instructor has the ability tofail a student and im sure it does happen. but does it happen enough?
oh well i guess i ran my mouth enough here, and for my closing remarks all i want to say when you are deciding to go to that next level think about it, ask yourself am i doing it for the title or am i truly ready for this next skill set. please choose wisely mistakes at 100 feet rarely let you" try it again another day."
scuba diving is way too much of a amazing sport that so few people can grasp the idea of what we do, lets all be around to keep doing it.
again this blabbing should bring no offense to anyone here, just one mans rant
i too am a ow cert diver with about 40 dives on my belt, i dig thru this site and read about accidents and close calls and i will never be a back seat driver for any of them since true details allways seem to be a rare item, but about a year ago i was on a charter boat in the keys and chatting with the d.m. about the spiegel grove and what were requirements from there company to dive it, his reply allways stuck with me he said you needed to be a aow cert diver with at least 100 dives and half of those to 100 feet. when i asked why he replied well you can have 6 dives and be aow certified. your aow cert does not mean you know how to dive any better
there definitely seems like most every sport to be "extreme" or have a high ranking asap. you dont wake up one day and decide to climb k2 those people die! or put there rescuers in peril. i watch it on tv or read about in variuos magazines all the time. one of the most recent was 11 people losing there lives on everest, 2 of them were trying to save lives ( one local ) a true tragedy since mosat of those people did not deserve to be there, and when i say deserve they have not spent the required years honing there craft, learning from true masters, and slowly working up there skill set. instead they paid tens of thousands to a company and just expected to be taken care of.
i feel this is the same in our sport, here we are strapping on 50-70 pounds of steel and gear and dropping to the depth of a ten story building to poke around. even my instructor said she would advise taking your aow right after your ow cert. that seemed very odd to me since that doubles my allowed depth with only a few more dives under me. i have been putting off my aow for the reason of wanting to be proficient in the water and comfortable. i dive with some great divers and am very happy to learn from them.
iam not here slamming those who go thru certs one after another that is not my point at all. we are all big boys and girls and we make our own descions in life and i respect that in all of us here. i guess my suprise lyes with the agencies allowing this, i know the instructor has the ability tofail a student and im sure it does happen. but does it happen enough?
oh well i guess i ran my mouth enough here, and for my closing remarks all i want to say when you are deciding to go to that next level think about it, ask yourself am i doing it for the title or am i truly ready for this next skill set. please choose wisely mistakes at 100 feet rarely let you" try it again another day."
scuba diving is way too much of a amazing sport that so few people can grasp the idea of what we do, lets all be around to keep doing it.
again this blabbing should bring no offense to anyone here, just one mans rant
Last edited by Burntchef on Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chin high, puffed chest, we step right to it
The choice is there ain't no choice but to pursue it
"Diving the gas is the easy part, not much to it, plenty of retards are using it safely. " jamieZ
The choice is there ain't no choice but to pursue it
"Diving the gas is the easy part, not much to it, plenty of retards are using it safely. " jamieZ
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straitscuba
- Aquaphile
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:43 pm
Thank you for your input on this subject. I have seen divemasters that are working for a dive op that only have the required 60 dives under their belt and have no real "skills" whatsoever, and I have dove with the OW diver that never wnt beyond ow and are great divers! I am currently a PADI OWSI and teach an AOW course and am looking for input to improve the quality of the classes that I teach. I have posted this topic on several disscusion boards and have heard many diverse awnsers and opinions. I appreciate all the feedback andhope that it will help me become a better instructor and more finely tune my classes to the wants and needs of the dive community.
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Grateful Diver
- I've Got Gills
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- Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm
I see some of the same things here that I see every time the subject of AOW comes up ... which are the reasons why both BDub and myself "reinvented" our AOW class to teach some real skills.
The AOW course offered by most instructors is meant to be an "experience" course ... something that gives you a review of what you learned in OW class, a few more dives with an instructor, and some experience under different diving conditions. If you're the type of person who needs those things under the guidance of an instructor, it has value. But a lot of people can learn the same things by hooking up with some good dive buddies and just going diving.
On the other hand, some instructors use the AOW class to dig deeper into skills that every diver needs if they want to be self-sufficient. It's where we teach you about dive planning, managing your gas supply, improving your buoyancy skills, learning how to be a good dive buddy, learning underwater navigation, and other skills that a typical Puget Sound diver really needs ... because we don't follow divemasters on guided dives around here like they do in most of the world.
AOW can be a great class ... or a complete waste of time. Depends on two things ... the instructor, and you. Figure out what you really want out of the class, then find an instructor who will offer you those things. An instructor who encourages you to take the class right after OW is offering experience dives. One who encourages you to go get some dives in first ... then take the class ... is going to challenge you to learn things you haven't even thought about yet.
I fall into the latter category ... I won't take brand new divers in my AOW, because they'd struggle too much to get the real value out of the class. I want my AOW students to be comfortable with what they learned in OW ... because they're going to spend my class building on those skills and learning what it takes to be a good, solid diver and dive buddy.
AOW classes vary quite a lot from instructor to instructor, and agency to agency. Before you decide it's a waste of time ... or that you won't learn anything ... look around and talk to a variety of instructors. I've had people from as far away as Minnesota and Colorado come here to take mine ... and people with hundreds of prior dives. So far, none of them have left feeling like they wasted their time and money ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
The AOW course offered by most instructors is meant to be an "experience" course ... something that gives you a review of what you learned in OW class, a few more dives with an instructor, and some experience under different diving conditions. If you're the type of person who needs those things under the guidance of an instructor, it has value. But a lot of people can learn the same things by hooking up with some good dive buddies and just going diving.
On the other hand, some instructors use the AOW class to dig deeper into skills that every diver needs if they want to be self-sufficient. It's where we teach you about dive planning, managing your gas supply, improving your buoyancy skills, learning how to be a good dive buddy, learning underwater navigation, and other skills that a typical Puget Sound diver really needs ... because we don't follow divemasters on guided dives around here like they do in most of the world.
AOW can be a great class ... or a complete waste of time. Depends on two things ... the instructor, and you. Figure out what you really want out of the class, then find an instructor who will offer you those things. An instructor who encourages you to take the class right after OW is offering experience dives. One who encourages you to go get some dives in first ... then take the class ... is going to challenge you to learn things you haven't even thought about yet.
I fall into the latter category ... I won't take brand new divers in my AOW, because they'd struggle too much to get the real value out of the class. I want my AOW students to be comfortable with what they learned in OW ... because they're going to spend my class building on those skills and learning what it takes to be a good, solid diver and dive buddy.
AOW classes vary quite a lot from instructor to instructor, and agency to agency. Before you decide it's a waste of time ... or that you won't learn anything ... look around and talk to a variety of instructors. I've had people from as far away as Minnesota and Colorado come here to take mine ... and people with hundreds of prior dives. So far, none of them have left feeling like they wasted their time and money ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
i took my aow 2 weeks after my ow. i learned even more in my aow, like the nag dive, at first i didn't think about it, then when we put it to use at depth, it came really handy, and learning how to controll my gas consumption at 100'. i would tell people if they asked me to go ahead and take the aow course after the ow course.
TAKE only pictures, KILL only time, LEAVE only bubbles!
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Pinkpadigal
- I've Got Gills
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When I teach AOW, I am the exact opposite of Bob. I think the name of the class is deceiving, because it doesn't make you an advanced diver. Open Water, Part II would be a better name. An advanced diver is someone who demonstrates confidence and skill in the water. I think it takes more than 20 or so dives to get to that level. I have about 1000 dives and I feel I am always learning, and no where near the diver that many of you are.
So many people come into this sport with few friends to dive with. Or, many people are just not confident enough to go out on their own with their buddy and dive. Some want the card so it says they can go 100 feet. Others, are on the professional track or want their Master Diver and need the class.
What I do is introduce divers to different types of dive enviroments...night diving, deep diving, advanced navigation, boat diving and drift diving. We go over buoyancy skills, diving with buddies and gas management. The dives are focused on having fun and building confidence and skill.
Can you do all of this w/o AOW? Of course, and many divers do not continue their education. I get divers like Sparky from time to time and for them, I taylor the class based on what they want to get out of it.
If AOW does encourage people to dive more, meet new buddies and have fun, then I feel it was successful. I don't know anyone that feels it was a waste of time.
So many people come into this sport with few friends to dive with. Or, many people are just not confident enough to go out on their own with their buddy and dive. Some want the card so it says they can go 100 feet. Others, are on the professional track or want their Master Diver and need the class.
What I do is introduce divers to different types of dive enviroments...night diving, deep diving, advanced navigation, boat diving and drift diving. We go over buoyancy skills, diving with buddies and gas management. The dives are focused on having fun and building confidence and skill.
Can you do all of this w/o AOW? Of course, and many divers do not continue their education. I get divers like Sparky from time to time and for them, I taylor the class based on what they want to get out of it.
If AOW does encourage people to dive more, meet new buddies and have fun, then I feel it was successful. I don't know anyone that feels it was a waste of time.
Amy Rhodes
PADI Master Instructor #183890
A-2-Z Scuba Instruction
http://www.a2zscuba.com
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PADI Master Instructor #183890
A-2-Z Scuba Instruction
http://www.a2zscuba.com
*******************
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Sergeant Pepper
- Perma Narc'd
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Rob Holman
- Avid Diver
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- Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:32 am
I think 99% of the AOW classes are a waste of time. Sometimes you get a good instructor that actually teaches something "advanced" but rarely, at least in my wanderings.
It is good for folks who are just getting into diving and want some more instructor led dives before going out on their own I guess.
Some dive charter operators require it go on their boat, or on select dives they run. I guess thats a good reason.
Mentorship is a better way to learn in my opinion.
I never went farther than Junior Open water diver with PADI. I let that sit for 18 or so years before I took another class. Then I chose classes tailored only to types of dives I specifically wanted to do, or skills I wanted to obtain.
It is good for folks who are just getting into diving and want some more instructor led dives before going out on their own I guess.
Some dive charter operators require it go on their boat, or on select dives they run. I guess thats a good reason.
Mentorship is a better way to learn in my opinion.
I never went farther than Junior Open water diver with PADI. I let that sit for 18 or so years before I took another class. Then I chose classes tailored only to types of dives I specifically wanted to do, or skills I wanted to obtain.
I have been extremely fortunate to have been "adopted" by a couple very skilled divers who have taken me under their wing. In my opinion I have learned far more from this than the usual/typical AOW. It has made me a much stronger diver and the experience and skill practice is second to none.
I have not yet taken GD's AOW because I want to ensure I am actually ready to learn advanced skills so I can take as much away from the class as possible. When my wife is ready, we want to take it together. For the same reason, we have not taken Fundies yet... we're not quite there yet.
For what it is worth, several experienced technical divers have shared their opinion with me that GD and BDub's AOW classes are exceptionally good, and not designed for newly OW certified divers.
I have not yet taken GD's AOW because I want to ensure I am actually ready to learn advanced skills so I can take as much away from the class as possible. When my wife is ready, we want to take it together. For the same reason, we have not taken Fundies yet... we're not quite there yet.
For what it is worth, several experienced technical divers have shared their opinion with me that GD and BDub's AOW classes are exceptionally good, and not designed for newly OW certified divers.
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I skipped AOW. I do have a NAUI Rescue card from bob. I also took SSI Deep, Night/Nav and Nitrox. I think that's technically enough to get my SSI Advanced card if the NAUI Rescue crossed over to SSI that would be four specialties but I never did the paperwork.
Most AOW courses don't seem to be worth it, other than as a stepping stone to Rescue, et al in the PADI world. Bob's is worth it, but he goes well beyond the minimum standards. If you're not bound to PADI, though, and the lack of the c-card isn't blocking you from courses you want to take, then there's no sense stressing over your lack of an AOW card.
I'm a little more concerned that some AOW courses involve diving to 100+ fsw on Al80s to experience narcosis with very little gas management having been introduced. The thing to worry about is that if you do take an AOW course that you don't wind up in that kind of situation. Bob's course will actually teach you why that's bad.
Most AOW courses don't seem to be worth it, other than as a stepping stone to Rescue, et al in the PADI world. Bob's is worth it, but he goes well beyond the minimum standards. If you're not bound to PADI, though, and the lack of the c-card isn't blocking you from courses you want to take, then there's no sense stressing over your lack of an AOW card.
I'm a little more concerned that some AOW courses involve diving to 100+ fsw on Al80s to experience narcosis with very little gas management having been introduced. The thing to worry about is that if you do take an AOW course that you don't wind up in that kind of situation. Bob's course will actually teach you why that's bad.
I didn't even think about that - I'd guess it's a fairly safe assumption that most AOW students around the world are diving Al80s, which after gas management class... 
GUE Seattle - The official GUE Affiliate in the Northwest!
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Grateful Diver
- I've Got Gills
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- Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm
I'll let you do a deep dive on an AL80 ... but only after you show me how you can do it without violating your rock bottom reserve ...Sounder wrote:I didn't even think about that - I'd guess it's a fairly safe assumption that most AOW students around the world are diving Al80s, which after gas management class...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Nope. 
I'll be packing my 130s with a good cold fill! 
You and Erica on the other hand will bring smaller tanks and have plenty left. 
](*,)
I'll be packing my 130s with a good cold fill! You and Erica on the other hand will bring smaller tanks and have plenty left. ](*,)GUE Seattle - The official GUE Affiliate in the Northwest!
I agree Sparky! I find Bob's consumption rate rather offensive. 
GUE Seattle - The official GUE Affiliate in the Northwest!
Had a great time in BDub's advanced class. My wife and I both had a lot of light bulbs turn on during that class (which was our first experience with BDub and his Wife).
There were a lot of little things brought up in the class that we felt we should have been taught in the BOW course but that is just our feeling on it.
Proper Weighting and trim is crucial and something that took me FOREVER to get moderately down eg I was a pigpen for silting up like a couple seals playing tag or something.
Learning proper breathing, I still suck down the air but I do it more controlled now haha. :p
I think if we had taken the advanced course with our old instructor it would have been a waste of money and time.
We got a lot out of the classroom and dive time during our AOW. You won't go wrong with Bob or Brian and Jeanna for AOW.
There were a lot of little things brought up in the class that we felt we should have been taught in the BOW course but that is just our feeling on it.
Proper Weighting and trim is crucial and something that took me FOREVER to get moderately down eg I was a pigpen for silting up like a couple seals playing tag or something.
Learning proper breathing, I still suck down the air but I do it more controlled now haha. :p
I think if we had taken the advanced course with our old instructor it would have been a waste of money and time.
We got a lot out of the classroom and dive time during our AOW. You won't go wrong with Bob or Brian and Jeanna for AOW.
--
Ron Hines
Naui OW, AOW, Rescue, Nitrox
Ron Hines
Naui OW, AOW, Rescue, Nitrox
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thelawgoddess
- Pelagic
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i don't see why people make such a fuss over this. look around at what's being offered, decide what you really want (and/or need), and make yourself happy. legally, you do NOT *need* ANY c-card to go diving.
the word "advanced" is merely a label and the issue just comes down to semantics - an "advanced" diving course is supposed to teach you skills beyond the ones you learned in your "beginner" course. i think some of the confusion exists because people start to equate the "advanced" in an "advanced diver course" with the "advanced" in "advanced diver" or "advanced dive" or "advanced dive site" ... which is entirely understandable when dive agencies force-feed you the notion that with your first c-card you are *allowed* to "dive anywhere in the world" but "only up to 60 feet" ... and the "advanced" c-card gets you "certified" to dive deeper than that (and in the dark). without going into other aspects of why a c-card alone might be the "wrong" way to think about how "advanced" of a diver someone is, a piece of plastic does not make someone a better diver. likewise, neither does having a certain number of dives or relatively more dives. whether a diver is "advanced" in terms of their overall abilities is a nearly arbitrary and certainly relative and subjective distinction; whether a diver has been taught or shown some "advanced" skills (beyond their first open water course) is something else. and while it may not mean anything in terms of any actualy mastery of skills, i think it does show that the person may at least have had an interest in increasing them.
i initially wanted to take AOW to do some of the "cool" things the course descriptions typically list - like boat dives and drift dives. when i was shopping around for a class, i asked grateful diver to send me his curriculum, and honestly, it didn't sound very fun. all of the dives were in cove 2 or 3 and they read like military drills. it took some steeping in the back of my brain before i saw the beauty and realized that while they didn't sound like very fun dives, they sounded like dives that would give me a foundation upon which (with some practice of course) i would develop the skills needed to do all of those "fun" dives and then some. how genius is that?
although grateful diver and bdub use mildly different curriculums and have slightly different focuses, the coursebook they created is a sensational joint effort between them and is a testament to their commitment and foresight. (it doesn't hurt that they are top-notch humans to boot.) i took SCUBA DIVER with bdub and ADVANCED SCUBA DIVER with grateful diver, and i highly recommend them as instructors. if you want a challenging course that goes way above and beyond the recreational norm, AOW with either of them would be money well spent.
btw, while grateful diver's course was incredibly challenging, and i actually went from feeling like a fairly confidently-developing intermediate diver to wondering why i ever took up diving in the first place ... bob still managed to make it fun. ;-)
the word "advanced" is merely a label and the issue just comes down to semantics - an "advanced" diving course is supposed to teach you skills beyond the ones you learned in your "beginner" course. i think some of the confusion exists because people start to equate the "advanced" in an "advanced diver course" with the "advanced" in "advanced diver" or "advanced dive" or "advanced dive site" ... which is entirely understandable when dive agencies force-feed you the notion that with your first c-card you are *allowed* to "dive anywhere in the world" but "only up to 60 feet" ... and the "advanced" c-card gets you "certified" to dive deeper than that (and in the dark). without going into other aspects of why a c-card alone might be the "wrong" way to think about how "advanced" of a diver someone is, a piece of plastic does not make someone a better diver. likewise, neither does having a certain number of dives or relatively more dives. whether a diver is "advanced" in terms of their overall abilities is a nearly arbitrary and certainly relative and subjective distinction; whether a diver has been taught or shown some "advanced" skills (beyond their first open water course) is something else. and while it may not mean anything in terms of any actualy mastery of skills, i think it does show that the person may at least have had an interest in increasing them.
i initially wanted to take AOW to do some of the "cool" things the course descriptions typically list - like boat dives and drift dives. when i was shopping around for a class, i asked grateful diver to send me his curriculum, and honestly, it didn't sound very fun. all of the dives were in cove 2 or 3 and they read like military drills. it took some steeping in the back of my brain before i saw the beauty and realized that while they didn't sound like very fun dives, they sounded like dives that would give me a foundation upon which (with some practice of course) i would develop the skills needed to do all of those "fun" dives and then some. how genius is that?
although grateful diver and bdub use mildly different curriculums and have slightly different focuses, the coursebook they created is a sensational joint effort between them and is a testament to their commitment and foresight. (it doesn't hurt that they are top-notch humans to boot.) i took SCUBA DIVER with bdub and ADVANCED SCUBA DIVER with grateful diver, and i highly recommend them as instructors. if you want a challenging course that goes way above and beyond the recreational norm, AOW with either of them would be money well spent.
btw, while grateful diver's course was incredibly challenging, and i actually went from feeling like a fairly confidently-developing intermediate diver to wondering why i ever took up diving in the first place ... bob still managed to make it fun. ;-)
"Life without passion is life without depth."~J.Hollis
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