Northwest Dive Club

This is becoming a capital - P Problem for me, so I'll go straight to the source for the best practices out there.

I dive a White's Fusion; it was not a custom fit but rather a used off the rack. I'm a hard fit, so the suit in many ways is too large for me, but if fits my fat a$$ which is the important part. Said a$$ is getting smaller, which is one area this suit works well -- it'll remain functional while I shrink much longer than more form fitting type suits would. I have no other health issues period, much less any that affect circulation. The feet are too large; I've found that snugging the heel into the back of the attached feet and gently folding the excess over the toe and under the ball of the foot provides more "loft" and warmth than jamming the toes into the front of the foot and gathering the rest up at the heel.

Obvious, synthetic socks work better than cotton, and I tend to wear "puffy" synthetic socks in there, but this weekend I had to call the dive due to my feet being frozen. (Max 62fsw, Avg 38fsw, Time 53, Temp 48F.) I'm noticing that even a small amt of weight loss is having significant effects in my cold tolerance. I was only slightly cool elsewhere (which is normal... it's cold water for goodness' sake). I top it with a pair of rock boots that are very thin and flexible at the top, with a nice solid sole. Kinda like a pair of black Chuck Taylors (they they aren't, they're inexpensive import rock boots).

So juggling economy with performance, what's the best thing to do here? A new suit is not an option now -- I need to know what I can jam onto my feet and into the drysuit feet that'll maximize my warmth. I know wool socks, but what wool socks? There's a big dif between a pair of woman's dress wool socks and hikers, and everyone makes a pair claiming to be THE warmest. And should I do Lycra socks next to skin, then wool -- or vice versa?

And can I totally cheat and use the little heating packs? (I oogled Bdub's heated vest, and maybe... someday... but right now the only problem at hand is my feet. hahaha!)

To illustrate how cold tolerant I used to be (55 lbs ago), I have worn a pair of thin spandex warm water gloves for all of my dives here in the PNW. My hands were never the deciding factor for warmth. They were often MORE warm than the rest of me. Until this weekend. I graduated up to a pair of 3 mm gloves. Toasty.

Thanks in advance!

I can say enough good things about the Weezel booties I have. Before them, it would take my feet 30-45 mintues to thaw after a 2nd dive--probably not healthy, but I wanted to dive, dammit! I tried every combination of sock, but with my REI thick wool blend socks and the Weezel booties, my feet are toasty. Seriously.

If you're planning to be at the March 5 club dive, you could try them out. I have two pairs (long story), so you can use one pair for the day and see what you think.

The best way to keep your extremeties warm is to make sure they're getting good perfusion (blood flow). Wrist seals should not be so tight as to restrict flow to the hands, and anything strapped around the lower legs tightly (ankle weights, dive knife straps etc) will not be helping your feet. A fairly comfy pair of light hiking socks should be plenty - if you work on minimizing heat loss from your head, neck, torso and groin your body will keep supplying lots of nice warm blood to your hands and feet. The only other suggestion I have is to make sure you're trimmed out correctly - horizontal in the water - this will help keep some of the air in your drysuit around your feet - try swimming with your knees a little bent and your lower legs angled up a little - helps both with warmth and it will make you more efficient and less likely to stir up silt.

the powerstretch 300 booties from DUI have been excellent for me with regards to the trade off between warmth and volume. Some of the big thinsulate booties are warmer but i loose all 'connection' with my fin tips and inevitably end up pinching one area of my feet or another which doesn't help. So anyhow, one vote for the grey gumby feet before them i had the Diving concepts stretchy quilted booties that also worked, but quite not _as_ well because my CF200's socks were too big (remedied that) and had to fold them over on the heels to take up the space, also were not quite as warm.

Cold hands and feet are a sign of your body shutting down circulation to preserve core temp. I'd attack on 3 fronts. Add a fleece vest to help your core. Also get something warmer on your feet. I recommend some 5th Element fleece booties (they are 2 layers thick and super cozy). Lastly, switch to dry gloves or if you stay wet get some 5mm. What's on your head? A good hood will make everything warmer.

-Ben

airsix wrote:Cold hands and feet are a sign of your body shutting down circulation to preserve core temp. I'd attack on 3 fronts. Add a fleece vest to help your core. Also get something warmer on your feet. I recommend some 5th Element fleece booties (they are 2 layers thick and super cozy). Lastly, switch to dry gloves or if you stay wet get some 5mm. What's on your head? A good hood will make everything warmer.

-Ben

She makes booties?

Lmao @ Ron. Mooltipass?

I don't have much trouble staying warm when I dive.....except for my feet. My feet get cold. I use good wool socks (basically, any thick pair of decent looking ones that cost 10 bucks or more is fine- Carhart makes good ones) and weezle booties.

ljjames wrote:the powerstretch 300 booties from DUI have been excellent for me with regards to the trade off between warmth and volume. Some of the big thinsulate booties are warmer but i loose all 'connection' with my fin tips and inevitably end up pinching one area of my feet or another which doesn't help. So anyhow, one vote for the grey gumby feet before them i had the Diving concepts stretchy quilted booties that also worked, but quite not _as_ well because my CF200's socks were too big (remedied that) and had to fold them over on the heels to take up the space, also were not quite as warm.

+1 for the gray gumby feet. If it's hella cold out, I'll add regular old athletic socks underneath, but usually I'm fine.

Sorry, I miscounted elements. I meant 4th element. LOL Nice job, Ron.


Edited to replace the name Scott with the name Ron. I'm an idiot today.

airsix wrote:Sorry, I miscounted elements. I meant 4th element. LOL Nice job, Scott.

Thanks, Josh......

I think whatevah nailed it. I used to have horrible problems with numb feet, but I figured out a large part of the problem was that, whatever I put on them, I was compressing it badly with my footgear. I hate to say this, but going from a rock boot to TurboSoles on my Fusion helped a ton. If the boots were laced up enough so that they wouldn't get loose at depth, they were sadly compressing my insulation and contributing to cold feet.

The point about making sure your feet aren't below you is a very good one as well, as it is impossible to keep the insulation around your feet lofted if they are squeezed.

I dive with a pair of cotton (horrors!) socks and a pair of cheap, fluffy polarfleece lounge socks over them, and my feet get somewhat cold but are almost never numb any more.

I'm up to three pairs of foot coverings, the socks I wore to the site, with some old fluffly socks that have a picture of mt rainier and its critters, then some multicolor knitted booties my mother made for me.

My feet don't get *that* much colder than the rest of me. Maybe it's time for a better hood.

Thanks for ALL the great suggestions!

When I look at the Turbo Soles (http://www.dui-online.com/acc_rb.htm) they have a lot of features of the rock boots I have. They are generously sized for my feet (which will allow more loft), they are a soft upper and they come up on the ankles such that I can wrap the laces. I think the key is going to be multiple layers and more loft inside the foot compartment of the drysuit, lightly covered with the boots I have.

Luckily, looks like I'm hitting the water Friday so I'll get to try out some new changes. Headed to the sporting goods store tonight to get a good wool hiking sock.

As for gloves, like I said -- my hands didn't really get cold before even in my thin warm water gloves. That'll be even better now with the thicker gloves--upon 2nd look the gloves I wore this past weekend were 5mm, not the 3mm I thought. I'll probably split the difference and go with 3mm for warmth vs dexterity (I really like the 4th Element gloves for fit and feel, let's see how they do in the water). True drygloves won't be a possibility until a new suit. And I wear a White's Heat Hood, and I've never noticed a problem with my head being cold, or at least not colder than my core body.

Under the suit I wear two layers of White's undergarments, but I know as I shrink that'll have to turn into a Weezle to keep up with my changing cold tolerance.

Again, thanks. You guys and gals rock.

turbo soles are the soles that are basically glued onto the bottoms of turbo socks.

Rock boots are worn over turbo socks.

rock boots work really well if the suit sock fits well. Otherwise you still end up in same boat of folded over parts of suit sock. I finally have a suit sock/rock boot combo that FITS, and i have to say it's simply delightful. my feet are warm, don't get pinched or anything. But before that, it was hit or miss with regards to how my feet were gonna feel on the dive.

I do a lot of shore diving, sometimes with less than ideal entry. I wear big heavy tanks and carry lots of camera gear that it would pain me greatly to fall on and break. Maybe i just have weak ankles and am a whimp, but i really find that the rock boots help my out of water stability dramatically. I put a half dozen dives on a suit with turbo soles in October and every dive coming up the slope felt a bit treacherous. Oh ya, and at some sites, the rocks and stuff hurt my feet through the thin turbo soles

laura = a wussy diver... i get cold to easy, "need" super warm undies, "need" heating vest, need better hood, can't scale cove 2 hill on a lower low tied up without rock boots, rocks hurt my feet... whine whine whine

Yeah, there are definitely downsides to TurboSoles. Minimal protection from rocks and no ankle support are two of them -- they also (or at least mine do) seem to leak pretty fast. I haven't found the perfect solution to footgear on a suit yet, and I'm not sure there is one. But lace-on boots made my feet colder, unless I didn't lace them tightly, and then they came off -- and having that happen 1000 feet back in a cave put an end to lace-on anything for me.

I admit, I didn't bother to read the entire thread but if it hasn't been suggested already.

Change your socks just before you put on your drysuit. Often times your feet are sweaty and you don't realize it. Put on a nice pair of dry socks to start the dive.

Oh and did I mention that 48 degree water isn't cold! That's darn near tropical!

Dmitchell wrote:Oh and did I mention that 48 degree water isn't cold! That's darn near tropical!

Like I said... lots changing. When I first started diving a year ago, I wore just a skin and maybe an UnderArmor shirt in my White's. I'm not kidding! Now I'd be frozen before I made it to the water's edge.

Amy

LCF wrote:Yeah, there are definitely downsides to TurboSoles.

The trouble I've found with them is a tendency for kicking my fins off :-/

First of all, congradulations on the weight loss! It is not easy but worth it (I know first hand).

I too have struggled with warmth after loosing some weight. The Bare undergarment and dive skin just weren't cutting it, especially during multiple winter dives. I purchased a Weezle Extreme Plus and it has made a world of difference. However, my feet are still getting pretty cold as well. I just received the Weezle booties and have yet to try them out. I am hoping they are the cure.

You may already know this but I'll post it anyway.... Any time you play with your undergarments you will have to adjust your weighting as well. I had to add 8lbs for the Weezle. It seems like a lot but totally worth it. I am guessing I will have to add another 4lbs for the booties.

I hope this helps.

Jonathan

One basic rule of camping is: if your feet are cold, put on a hat.

Make sure your hood is tight and you don't have a lot of water exchange in your hood during a dive.

I wear a tropical beanie hood under my main hood to reduce water exchange. It made a big difference for my fingers and toes.

waterproof brand 5/10mm = flippin' awesome!!

Congrats on the weight loss. Having dropped over 50lbs myself over 8 years ago, I know how hard that journey can be. So kudos to you for losing and keeping it off.

My $.02:
A neoprene suit is optimal. As soon as you can get into that kind of suit, you will find your warmth factor increasing exponentially.
Rockboots are not worth their downside to me, I'd advise you go with turbosoles. I've always had turbosoles. I shore dive and boat dive extensively. I've clambered over rocks, up ladders, and up cobblestone beaches with no problems. If you have weak ankles, wrap them. But I have yet to hear someone having an injury due to turbosoles. I also have gone to 600+ dives on my TLS350 with zero leaks in my turbosoles. Turbosoles are great b/c they allow you to use the proper footwear without losing circulation. Be sure to not over-strap the velcro strapping, I find folks use that to cut off circulation too much. Also e sure your fins are snug but not cutting off circulation.
A good hood will go a very long way to help you stay warm. I found that as I lost the weight I got more susceptible to cold. A good hood, replaced every 50 dives religiously, is a definite must.
Good footwear will go even longer to help you stay warm. Again, as I got leaner I found that my feet got cold. I use heavyweight SmartWool socks plus the powerstretch DUI booties. Glorious!
Good gloves will go even longer to help you be warm. Wetgloves are 5mm minimum should I wear them here. Drygloves (unlined) with a very good liner are my weapon of choice.
I found that with an excellent hood, good footwear, and good gloves/liners, that I can dive with a 300g undergarment. This is a plus for many reasons, including lack of bulk, excellent warmth, and less overall lead. When wearing doubles I have no extra weight. In a single steel 95 I need very little weight. That's a huge plus!

You've gotten all kinds of advice here. But having walked your shoes I know how it is to change metabolism, body heat, body weight, etc. This is what worked for me. Feel free to PM me if you have questions or need some help.

My DUI shell suit has neoprene socks attached to it, and underneath them I wear the heaviest wool socks Patagonia sells. I am not sure it matters, but I wear Whites Evos over all of it (which I like much better than DUI Rock Boots). My feet have always been warm, never an issue. Good luck!!!

Update:

Weezle booties are worth every penny.

Sounds like most of the good advice has already been delivered.

Here in Alaska I tend to dive extra layers in the winter and if I plan multiple dives in a day and will not be able to warm up in a boat cabin or something, then I also switch to my neoprene suit and forego the tri-lam.

Speaking specifically of feet though, I typically wear 2 pairs of good wool/blend socks. I've found that newer socks tend to be better since I assume they material is denser form not being washed and dried. I've had good luck with Wigwam, Smartwool and REI. My new favs are Redhead brand sold in the Bass Pro shops catalog. I usually wear a pair of thermals tucked into a sock, then put on my fleece and tuck it into the second sock. It's worked so far.

Last night I tried a pair of Seal Skins for the first time. The water temp. was 36 degrees and although my feet did not get cold, I didn't notice a huge improvement over the double sock strategy I usually use.

On a final note, I almost always suit up at home. it's easy here because there's only 14 miles of road. Down where you are, if you're suiting up at the dive site, maybe spend a few minutes in your vehicle with the heat on after you've suited up. Going into the water with any thermal debt will get you every time and changing clothes in a cold, rainy parking lot is almost gauranteed to chill you before your dive.

Good Luck.