Perception of the DIR community?

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:58 am

Honest, honest question here, this is not a troll and is not meant to get anyone steaming . . . but I think it is a worthwhile topic for conversation on this board.

Here is the question: For those non-DIR divers out there, what is your perception of Seattle's DIR community?

Go ahead and be honest.

Having been taken under the mentorship of that group early in my dive career, I find myself being on the "inside" looking out, so to speak. I've had conversations with non-DIR divers over the past few months that I found surprising, and that got me thinking.

I am certainly aware of the past internet perception of DIR, so I'd like to not rehash that. But, if that has colored your opinions of local DIR divers, it may be relevant. Share stories, opinions, feelings, go ahead and be blunt.

My goal here is to simply get a feeling for how this sub-group of our local community is percieved as a whole. I honestly don't have any agenda beyond that, I am just curious.

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:43 am

The best ambassadors of DIR are the ones who don't talk about it ... they just go out and dive. Those are the ones who never forgot that the main reason they learned how to dive was to have fun, and who set good examples and become mentors.

Lots of people don't know that the majority of the "mentors" who came out for our Big Buddy dives last year were DIR divers. Know why? Because it was never brought up. We took a "don't preach ... do" philosophy, and everyone had fun without giving a whole lot of thought to who was trained by whom.

Labels inevitably tend to be divisive ... that particular label has proven more divisive than most.

We're all divers ... we can all learn from each other. Those who take that approach will be respected, whatever their training choices ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:52 am

good points Bob.

Grateful Diver wrote: Lots of people don't know that the majority of the "mentors" who came out for our Big Buddy dives last year were DIR divers. Know why? Because it was never brought up. We took a "don't preach ... do" philosophy, and everyone had fun without giving a whole lot of thought to who was trained by whom.

Indeed, that is how I got into this style of diving-being paired up with Lynne on my 10 dive or so.

Labels inevitably tend to be divisive ... that particular label has proven more divisive than most.

Part of my motivation in this post was my surprise at how strongly anti-DIR people seemed to be. I think it has to do with the whole history of "Doing it Right" and a conception that if you aren't DIR, you are an unsafe diver (which isn't true in my experience).

We're all divers ... we can all learn from each other. Those who take that approach will be respected, regardless of their training choices ...

Totally agreed, and as a two-way street. I hope people don't think that DIR divers feel like they have a monopoly on safe/competent diving. We've got a good community here, we can all learn from each other. Another reason I posted this was the shock I had when I got comments like "you'll dive with me even though I am not DIR?" OF COURSE I will-I don't really know if I could consider myself DIR, all I want to be is a safe, competent diver, and I want to dive with safe, competent buddies.

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:16 am

For the inside looking out...

I would say that when people start talking about how much they love their ponys I am rather disinclined to dive with them. But otherwise I will try diving with just about anyone, shallow first pls. On the other hand, I have enough like-minded and like-trained buddies that I have little need to go outside my circle very much. That might make me seem "snooty" or closed minded. But its not meant that way, I can only have so many free days to dive and there's little shortage of buddys/friends to fill them with.

I'm no expert but did come out for 1 "big buddy" dive last year. I had a good time, although I didn't dive with anyone new to me. I would do it again a couple times this year if someone else is interested in setting it up.

Richard

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:37 pm

Lynne and I were discussing getting them going again ... we just didn't set a date/time/location yet ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:38 pm

That's good, while I know they aren't meant to be "discover DIR", they might as well have been that way last year

Rob Holman · Post by **Rob Holman** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:46 pm

My experience is that even within the DIR crowd there are splits. Those who consider themselves the "true" DIR dudes. Those folks are probably also the ones who give the DIR crowd the rep that they have.

My opinion is who the heck cares. Furthermore, if someone won't dive with you bcs your not DIR (or because you are DIR), why should that bother you? People are way to sensitive in the dive community.

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:51 pm

I'll ride in the stroke anyday! Just hope it starts

(its a 15.5ft inflatable boat if you didn't know)

Dmitchell · Post by **Dmitchell** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:01 pm

From someone who is 1000 miles on the outside looking in. Which means all I know is what I read online and what I hear from a few of my friends in Seattle.

My understanding is that there are a lot of divers in Seattle who tech dive and who follow at least as a general rule the principles of the "DIR” gear configuration. Whether they "Get" the rest of the team philosophy or the mental and physical thing, I don’t know.

Personally, most of my gear has big the big H on it and I generally follow the principles. I teach tech and I explain what the DIR configuration is and why things are done the way they are but I also explain my own ways of doing things.

Last month I was at Ginnie Springs more or less goofing around. If you haven’t ever been there, the main spring is the “ballroom” it’s 45’deep and you can see daylight from the very bottom. It is dark in there and it is an overhead but give me a break. The Ego’s floating around that place we’re incredible. It’s my understanding that there is a group or two in Seattle that could rival the egos of most Florida cave communities and I’ve seen some of it on the boards but generally online everyone is at least cordial.

I know that when I’ve dove at Alki, I’ve seen lines strewn all over the place and have thought to myself, I wonder who will get sued when some newbie diver gets all tangled in it and gets hurt. In my mind leaving a line in Openwater is littering.

Dave

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:19 pm

Dmitchell wrote: I know that when I’ve dove at Alki, I’ve seen lines strewn all over the place and have thought to myself, I wonder who will get sued when some newbie diver gets all tangled in it and gets hurt. In my mind leaving a line in Openwater is littering.

Dave

That got cleaned up ... mostly by the same people who put it down there.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:14 pm

Dave do you have any GUE training?

Dmitchell · Post by **Dmitchell** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:36 pm

Nope, Don't intend to ever get it either, for me I don't see any value in it what-so-ever. Besides, I don't recall GUE having a CCR rebreather DIR course and since I'm moving all my "fun" diving to rebreather what's the use.

Rob Holman · Post by **Rob Holman** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:44 pm

http://www.gue.com/Training/Technical/rebreather.html

It's not closed circuit I guess.

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:46 pm

I only asked because I was curious about where your information about the DIR configuration and "why things are done the way they are" comes from. I know Grateful Diver has taken DIRF and has incorporated some of the concepts presented into his own teaching. I wondered if you had done the same.

And you are correct CCRs are not DIR. Neither is SCR for most dives for that matter.

For the record I have DIRF, Tech1 and Cave1 via GUE so I feel I have a pretty good grasp on what DIR is, and sometimes ignore it

Dmitchell · Post by **Dmitchell** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:46 pm

Rob Holman wrote:http://www.gue.com/Training/Technical/rebreather.html

That would be a semi closed you must have missed the CCR part. The RB80 in not a CCR.

Rob Holman · Post by **Rob Holman** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:49 pm

I was editing as you were replying

Dmitchell · Post by **Dmitchell** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:59 pm

CaptnJack wrote:I only asked because I was curious about where your information about the DIR configuration and "why things are done the way they are" comes from. I know Grateful Diver has taken DIRF and has incorporated some of the concepts presented into his own teaching. I wondered if you had done the same.

And you are correct CCRs are not DIR. Neither is SCR for most dives for that matter.

For the record I have DIRF, Tech1 and Cave1 via GUE so I feel I have a pretty good grasp on what DIR is, and sometimes ignore it

I've been around enough to grasp the concept that DIR is much more than copying the gear configuration that George and Jarrod are using. Don't get me wrong. If I didn't at least partially believe in the concept, I wouldn't be diving it and certinally wouldn't feel qualified enough to discuss it in my classes.

With respect to GUE, I respect the concept and the fact that the classes are very rigeous as they should be. The problem is that in many cases, the outcome is an eliteist society.
I personally hate agency bashing so I don't want to get into that.

The biggest problem I have with DIR is that all of these newbie diver read about the gear configuration online and then over and over you hear "is my purple wetsuit DIR???" Can't these people think for themselves?

I will dive with just about anyone. I have my gear setup and they have thiers, I'm not going to coach them on what to wear. If they want to dive a 1970's reg go ahead, I can take care of myself and if need be them as well. If they want to further understand why my gear is the way it is I'll gladly explain it to them.

Peace!

Dave

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:01 pm

And in DIR, SCR is only used when you need its benefits and they outweight the risks.

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:03 pm

Dmitchell wrote: The problem is that in many cases, the outcome is an eliteist society.
I personally hate agency bashing so I don't want to get into that.

***

The biggest problem I have with DIR is that all of these newbie diver read about the gear configuration online and then over and over you hear "is my purple wetsuit DIR???" Can't these people think for themselves?

Both common complaints, I think.

But, steering this back to the original topic, rather than a DIR/anti-DIR thread, I'd ask if people see this in the local community.

I haven't seen an elitist attitude at all from the DIR divers I dive with, to the contrary they are the type of "lead by example" divers Bob refers to.

thelawgoddess · Post by **thelawgoddess** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:13 pm

well, this goes beyond just our area really to everywhere i've been diving, but my experience of how others view DIR divers is that they are fairly uptight, ridiculously conservative, overly whiny, and take way too long fidgeting with gear.

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:20 pm

thelawgoddess wrote:well, this goes beyond just our area really to everywhere i've been diving, but my experience of how others view DIR divers is that they are fairly uptight, ridiculously conservative, overly whiny, and take way too long fidgeting with gear.

Interesting, I know you've traveled a fair amount, care to relate any stories on what made you arrive at this conclusion about how others view DIR?

And, at the risk of having to take the fifth, would you say this perception is accurate or applies to the local community?

thelawgoddess · Post by **thelawgoddess** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:51 pm

dsteding wrote:
thelawgoddess wrote:well, this goes beyond just our area really to everywhere i've been diving, but my experience of how others view DIR divers is that they are fairly uptight, ridiculously conservative, overly whiny, and take way too long fidgeting with gear.
Interesting, I know you've traveled a fair amount, care to relate any stories on what made you arrive at this conclusion about how others view DIR?

And, at the risk of having to take the fifth, would you say this perception is accurate or applies to the local community?

all of my dives have been around here, in british columbia, off of cozumel, and in a couple of mayan riveria cenotes, but i also include perceptions i've garnered while being around other divers in a non-diving situation. i don't really have any stories, and i could be wrong in some cases - it's just how i've interpreted what others have said or how they've acted/re-acted. and i wouldn't say it's prevalent at all - a lot of times it is only situational.

the uptight and conservative view was something i really noticed in cozumel. it covered the two DIR divers on our boat and bled over to me and my boyfriend (i dive a bpw and use a wrist computer and wrist compass, we both dive long hoses, and we've both had gas management training). we were sort of seen as wusses when it came to dive depths (on 2nd dives and 4th dives), the [lack of] SIT before the 2nd tank on a set of boat dives, the amount of air we surfaced with, and the length of time we'd take for safety stops. of course, we didn't think we were being wusses, and we certainly didn't think the DIR people were being wusses, but it did make me wonder about the depth of training the other divers had - even when i knew some of them had been diving for 10+ years. (and i guess that is the very type of thing that could easily be mis-interpreted if i had actually voiced such a thought.)

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:02 pm

I'm happy to be seen as a conservative wuss when I get back on the boat with 800 psi in an AL80 after a 90ft dive (cause I left the bottom with about 1100)

And I'm a wuss since I'll take 8-10 minutes to ascend from that 90ft dive, guilty as charged.

As far as the SITs go, I would just double or triple the shallow stops if a boat operator was limiting that time. So I guess the whole wuss moniker is well founded!

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:06 pm

thelawgoddess wrote: the uptight and conservative view was something i really noticed in cozumel. it covered the two DIR divers on our boat and bled over to me and my boyfriend (i dive a bpw and use a wrist computer and wrist compass, we both dive long hoses, and we've both had gas management training). we were sort of seen as wusses when it came to dive depths (on 2nd dives and 4th dives), the [lack of] SIT before the 2nd tank on a set of boat dives, the amount of air we surfaced with, and the length of time we'd take for safety stops. of course, we didn't think we were being wusses, and we certainly didn't think the DIR people were being wusses, but it did make me wonder about the depth of training the other divers had - even when i knew some of them had been diving for 10+ years. (and i guess that is the very type of thing that could easily be mis-interpreted if i had actually voiced such a thought.)

Guilty as charged as well, and also totally okay with it. I'd say we are lucky to have the instructors (DIR and non-DIR, Bob and BDub come to mind here) that we do around here.

thelawgoddess · Post by **thelawgoddess** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:15 pm

dsteding wrote:Guilty as charged as well, and also totally okay with it. I'd say we are lucky to have the instructors (DIR and non-DIR, Bob and BDub come to mind here) that we do around here.

very lucky.

let's blame our wussiness all on bdub and bob. ;-)