Rebreather instructor training..

[kdupreez]

So, I would like to get some feedback from accomplished rebreather divers who have a few years of experience.

Without naming any agencies or manufacturers, there is a big push for "Recreational" rebreathers and rebreather instructors lately and I have some questions that I think only actual experienced RB divers can answer for me or at least weigh in on..

I'm also very interested in your opinion if you are a RB diver AND an instructor (OC or RB)

The minimum requirements to enter and become a recreational and advanced recreational rebreather instructor is a total career dives of 150 dives and of that 150, at least 75 rebreather dives (recreational or tec dives count)

So my question is this.. What is your opinion of the experience you had when you only had 150 dives (shallower than 100ft) ?

Do you think you would have been in a place to teach scuba divers to dive rebreathers, knowing what you know now based on a few years of experience?

really not trying to stir the pot, I'm trying to gauge the general perspective on this from real rebreather divers..

K

[Joshua Smith]

No, not really. I was just getting comfortable at that point. Although some people get comfortable much faster than that. I'm a little confused by the "recreational" ccr idea in the first place. I get the KISS Gem concept......but if I was never going deeper than, say, 150', I'd probably stick w OC.

[camerone]

Meh. I don't teach diving. I have had enough students try to kill me in the airplane to know that I will never want to teach diving. That said, of my personal first 150 dives, 138 of them were on a rebreather. I went right from OW into a unit, because I got the first one for free. (Just like crack, I was hooked...it's been 10+ years of closed circuit now for me...)

You learn from a rebreather trying to kill you in all kinds of crazy ways. I personally think the "recreational" CCR units and low time instructors are both genuine disservices to the industry and to their students. Anyone taught that their only option is "bail out", or worse, who has the unit force that action without the ability to override, is wasting most of what the rebreather provides -- time and options. They might as well be blowing bubbles - safer, simpler, and cheaper. It's turning rebreather training into the same dumbing down that PADI, SSI, and NAUI all have done in the last 20+ years to build revenue streams by minting divers more quickly and charging them again for teaching "advanced open water" skills that should've been part of the basics all along. We all (who have been around for a while) know deep down there's nothing "advanced" about advanced open water...just that it's the watermanship we should've taught all along.

The other thing I learned in the last few years with some inland living was that "dives" and dive training are complete jokes inland. I watched folks on a dive shop trip to a lake in New Mexico rack up six, seven, or eight dives in a day, on no more than two tanks, as they raced to build dives for Master Diver, or Advanced Open Water, or any one of those certifications that counts dives. At least on the coast, it takes some effort... there it was... well... sad.

What truly matters on a rebreather is logged, verified hours, not dives. Rebreathers are about controlling your physiological needs in a steady state, for prolonged periods of time, and dealing with the failures that occur. The ones that happen right away aren't interesting - they basically tell you you're a moron for not pre-checking your gear right and not maintaining it. They're obvious. The ones that happen well into the dive are the insidious ones that will catch you off guard and are learning experiences.

I personally wouldn't trust an instructor with less than a few hundred hours of rebreather time to teach anything and I would actively and publicly steer friends away from him or her. I don't care whether that's 100 dives or 1000 dives... it's the logged hours in various environments that matter, not the tick marks on a paper log book on the surface.

[Linedog]

Not a RB diver but I totally agree with hours VS dives. That should apply to OC as well.

[Joshua Smith]

Meh. I don't teach diving. I have had enough students try to kill me in the airplane to know that I will never want to teach diving. That said, of my personal first 150 dives, 138 of them were on a rebreather. I went right from OW into a unit, because I got the first one for free. (Just like crack, I was hooked...it's been 10+ years of closed circuit now for me...)

You learn from a rebreather trying to kill you in all kinds of crazy ways. I personally think the "recreational" CCR units and low time instructors are both genuine disservices to the industry and to their students. Anyone taught that their only option is "bail out", or worse, who has the unit force that action without the ability to override, is wasting most of what the rebreather provides -- time and options. They might as well be blowing bubbles - safer, simpler, and cheaper. It's turning rebreather training into the same dumbing down that PADI, SSI, and NAUI all have done in the last 20+ years to build revenue streams by minting divers more quickly and charging them again for teaching "advanced open water" skills that should've been part of the basics all along. We all (who have been around for a while) know deep down there's nothing "advanced" about advanced open water...just that it's the watermanship we should've taught all along.

The other thing I learned in the last few years with some inland living was that "dives" and dive training are complete jokes inland. I watched folks on a dive shop trip to a lake in New Mexico rack up six, seven, or eight dives in a day, on no more than two tanks, as they raced to build dives for Master Diver, or Advanced Open Water, or any one of those certifications that counts dives. At least on the coast, it takes some effort... there it was... well... sad.

What truly matters on a rebreather is logged, verified hours, not dives. Rebreathers are about controlling your physiological needs in a steady state, for prolonged periods of time, and dealing with the failures that occur. The ones that happen right away aren't interesting - they basically tell you you're a moron for not pre-checking your gear right and not maintaining it. They're obvious. The ones that happen well into the dive are the insidious ones that will catch you off guard and are learning experiences.

I personally wouldn't trust an instructor with less than a few hundred hours of rebreather time to teach anything and I would actively and publicly steer friends away from him or her. I don't care whether that's 100 dives or 1000 dives... it's the logged hours in various environments that matter, not the tick marks on a paper log book on the surface.

That is very well put.

[kdupreez]

Thats a very interesting angle.. the hours on the unit is probably a much better experience benchmark

I guess a shallow 30min dive x 75, is only like 35 hours on a unit and thats probably not a lot by rebreather hours standards?

Great post Camerone!

Thanks for the insight, especially from someone that pretty much went straight RB.

[finnegankp]

Not a RB diver but I totally agree with hours VS dives. That should apply to OC as well.

+1 to Linedog and camerone - Hours are far more important than number of dive. I'm not a RB diver, but as a recent DM grad I can honestly say that at 100 dives I was comfortable as a diver, but no-where ready to instruct someone on everything it takes to be an OC diver... Even now at 200+ I'm only just considering the AI Course and that's only because I've logged some solid downtime and experienced some of the less common dive problems...

I've never used a CCR but the tech and finer aspects of it seem far more complex IMHO than OC and thus more hours should be logged to teach it to future divers...

[Jeff Pack]

I know you asked for experienced rb divers, but I had to comment.

As a new RB diver. my hours have gone way up, but dives way down... its all about hours, hell, I've already got almost 20 logged hours, and thats nothing, not even a scratch in experience. Yet I'm almost 1/2 to the required hours for Mod 2.

As to recreational rebreathers, it seems this term is bandied about as a lower cost, maybe not so deep a diving unit. Considering not long ago I was training to dive 160+ on the GEM (and I know people who dive them much deeper), and what I've learned on the MEG and general rebreather designs, I shudder at the concept of a bargain unit,and what corners have been cut. Rebreather design is pretty interesting. Watch Leon's video on the Meg @200 where he eviscerates that thing, . I doubt any recreational rebreather could ever hold to that.

Sorry to jump in.

[kdupreez]

Jeff - Just trying to understand your 2 cents..

I'm not sure I understand your feedback as it pertains to the discussion on RB instructor experience requirements?

No offense, but I could care less if you cut a unit in half at 500ft or dive it at 100ft fully in tact.. I'm trying to elicit some discussion around the push to create RB instructors in the recreational space with only 75 RB dives..

[Joshua Smith]

Jeff - Just trying to understand your 2 cents..

I'm not sure I understand your feedback as it pertains to the discussion on RB instructor experience requirements?

No offense, but I could care less if you cut a unit in half at 500ft or dive it at 100ft fully in tact.. I'm trying to elicit some discussion around the push to create RB instructors in the recreational space with only 75 RB dives..

I missed the part about 75 ccr dives. That's appalling. I guess.....for the unit they're gearing it towards....it will probably sort of work.....but I have my doubts.

[Jeremy]

You thinking of getting into rebreathers Koos?

[kdupreez]

HELL NO.. I am fairly accomplished on OC, but with emerging recreational RB market, I was just curious how real RB divers are perceiving this and how "lean" are these agencies running with the requirements of would be rec RB instructors.

My understanding is that its a fair amount more complex than OC, but i could be wrong.. 75 RB dives just sound/looks a little thin to me.

[CaptnJack]

75 RB dives just sound/looks a little thin to me.

Not any thinner than the minimum for becoming an OC instructor IMHO.

Personally I think many of these minimums are just put out there so that the requirements don't seem daunting and the shops can sell more DM/AI/instructor courses. Not that the newly minted 76 dive instructor would actually have any students afterwards (they'd be a competitor afterwall).

[John Rawlings]

What truly matters on a rebreather is logged, verified hours, not dives. Rebreathers are about controlling your physiological needs in a steady state, for prolonged periods of time, and dealing with the failures that occur. The ones that happen right away aren't interesting - they basically tell you you're a moron for not pre-checking your gear right and not maintaining it. They're obvious. The ones that happen well into the dive are the insidious ones that will catch you off guard and are learning experiences.

I personally wouldn't trust an instructor with less than a few hundred hours of rebreather time to teach anything and I would actively and publicly steer friends away from him or her. I don't care whether that's 100 dives or 1000 dives... it's the logged hours in various environments that matter, not the tick marks on a paper log book on the surface.

I agree 100% with what camerone said in his post, but these last two paragraphs I especially agree with. At "75 dives" a CCR diver is just BEGINNING to understand his/her unit and the many nuances of CCR diving, and has no business whatsoever being an instructor, in my ever so humble opinion.

- John

[kdupreez]

Not any thinner than the minimum for becoming an OC instructor IMHO.

True Dat!!

[fishb0y]

I'd have to say I agree with almost everyone. While I think a good instructor could transition well into CCR and teach it fairly quickly (75-100 hrs worth) there are also those skills that don't transition well from OC to CCR unless you are constantly practicing them.
Another point that I don't think anyone has brought up, is the fact that many active instructors don't really do much more that OW or AOW classes. They'll put out 50+ OW students a year, and then rarely go deeper than 85ft outside an AOW class.
Sure there are a few that may keep their CCR and OW skills sharp, But i will admit I had some transition issues going between the 2 at times when I was actively teaching right after my CCR class.

[rjw]

I know you said you weren't naming units or agencies. I'm just curious are you talking about a full CCR or just a gas extending unit such as a GEM? With the gas extending units 75 dives would most likely be more than suffcient for an existing instructor to crossover. However with a full CCR as stated earlier its time on the loop that count.

Rob

[kdupreez]

Not specific units. some hybrids, some are full "recrational" ccr's

Well.. I guess the manufacturers dont matter, since a recreational rebreather is just the equipment.. I'm questioning the agencies rushing to spit out as many unqualified (in my opinion) instructors in as short a time as they can..

some example of units are the Poseidon Mk VI (full ccr) and the Hollis Explorer thats a hybrid ccr.

I've dove the Poseidon in the pool and its actually a fairly well put together piece of gear.. so not questioning the equipment at all..

[fishb0y]

My understanding with those units are that if there are ANY issues, then you bail out to open circuit. For those types of units, I guess it is kinda OK, but anything more I would be looking for an instructor with quite a bit more experience.

When the drager dolphin/atlantis/ray first came out, I was offered to become an instructor with only a couple of dives... glad I didn't.

[kdupreez]

My understanding with those units are that if there are ANY issues, then you bail out to open circuit. For those types of units, I guess it is kinda OK, but anything more I would be looking for an instructor with quite a bit more experience.

When the drager dolphin/atlantis/ray first came out, I was offered to become an instructor with only a couple of dives... glad I didn't.

good point.. the one thing i dont agree with is that bail out tanks are not required for recreational depths with some agencies.. i.e. you have a tiny 19cft dill bottle, that you have probaby done a dive or two on before and running inflation on.. you are at 70ft+ plus with probably not a whole lot in there and then it tells you to bail..

once nice thing about the poseidon was that the mouth piece vibrates like crazy to tell you to switch to OC..

anyways, it seems that there is somewhat of a concensus from experienced RB divers that the standards are pretty thin and it wasnt just me..

K

[Tom Nic]

once nice thing about the poseidon was that the mouth piece vibrates like crazy to tell you to switch to OC..

Uh Oh.

Better not let word of that get out.

I know a bunch of divers that will insist on vibrating mouthpieces for their regular gear.

Who knows where it might lead from there?! :luv:

[CaptnJack]

When the drager dolphin/atlantis/ray first came out, I was offered to become an instructor with only a couple of dives... glad I didn't.

Look at the opportunity you missed!!!

once nice thing about the poseidon was that the mouth piece vibrates like crazy to tell you to switch to OC..

Uh Oh.

Better not let word of that get out.

I know a bunch of divers that will insist on vibrating mouthpieces for their regular gear.

Who knows where it might lead from there?! :luv:

Sounder's not here anymore
But I suppose there's LLJ with her C batteries and bananas

[ljjames]

Sounder's not here anymore
But I suppose there's LLJ with her C batteries and bananas

As you pointed out, have the C batteries and banana's covered, so no need for such feature...

Disclaimer: unless H added it to their regs, then it would be a must have

[Jeremy]

This thread is surprisingly entertaining

[Tom Nic]

This thread is surprisingly entertaining

Surprisingly? What, you think re-breathers are boring?

See, it is that kind of judgmental narrow minded attitude that causes problems in life and on the internet.