Northwest Dive Club

I'm not looking to start a debate on the merits/risks of deep air.

Deep air used to be a standard rite of passage for adventurous divers, but I'm just wondering how common the practice of using air for dives in the 130 - 170 range is in the local tech community today. I have the impression that as helium has become more accepted, the use of deep air has decreased; but I'm wondering if that's a misperception on my part.

For those of you who teach, do you find students generally more interested or less interested in learning to dive deep air?

Do most "old school" deep air divers still prefer deep air, or if you've been trained and diving deep air, have you or are you more inclined to dive helium mixes now than you were 10 years ago or 15 years ago?

We dived deep air because it was the only option. It was NOT a right of passage. My dive buddies and I stopped diving air past about 60' the day we got helium certs. That was in 1992-ish so I'm guessing we count as 'old-timers'.

I don't teach any more, and it's been like 100 years since I taught any tech, but in my experience the people who came to us for classes did so specifically because they didn't WANT to dive deep air. They had bigger plans that included deep wrecks and walls, and wanted to remember the dive.

ljjames wrote: My dive buddies and I stopped diving air past about 60' the day we got helium certs.

So you're more in line with my perception that deep air is history. But my question is really if those of us who never dive deep air are more the exception or the rule? Does anyone still teach deep air, and are new tech divers choosing to dive deep air?

I recently had a conversation with a diver at the shop while waiting for a fill regarding deep air. He was PADI tech 50 certified and started telling me about his regular dives to 130-160 on air. I asked if he had any qualms about getting narc'd at that depth and I got quite the list of stories of all the buddies he has that can't handle it... I decided not to press into it anymore, but as one data point - seems like there are still those out there that do it without any hesitation.

AFAIK, deep air is still taught by some agencies ... including TDI and IANTD.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I think you're going to have a hard time finding people who will come forward and publicly state on NWDC that they dive deep on air due to the obvious bias against it.

spatman wrote:I think you're going to have a hard time finding people who will come forward and publicly state on NWDC that they dive deep on air due to the obvious bias against it.

I'm sure you're right, but my question isn't *who* dives deep air. I was a member here before I even started diving, so I guess you could say that I've grown up with that bias. My question is more about *how common* the practice is today.

I've changed the title of the thread to reflect that this thread is a No Hijack Zone now. A couple of comments that I instigated started a downward spiral, so they've been deleted in the hopes we can keep this conversation on track. My apologies to the OP.

Carry on.

Paulicarp wrote:Deep air used to be a standard rite of passage for adventurous divers, but I'm just wondering how common the practice of using air for dives in the 130 - 170 range is in the local tech community today. I have the impression that as helium has become more accepted, the use of deep air has decreased; but I'm wondering if that's a misperception on my part.

For me, the rising cost of helium has been a big deterrent to casually doing dives to 150+. Though I won't dive just straight air, I will dive a "slightrox" blend to a target depth of <140fsw if there's something I really want to see.

You just don't know what you don't know. As Spatty said, not a whole lot of folks here will probably admit to it.

That being said, you can guarantee there are folks there doing it. They may not be a part of the NWDC circle.


It is very common in Florida, but I had to expand beyond my circle of acquaintances to find the folks who did it.... Mainly because as the boat owner, folks who wanted to do it from my boat usually caught enough shit that they just got the trimix certification.

ljjames wrote:My dive buddies and I stopped diving air past about 60' the day we got helium certs.

60'??? Jeepers, and I thought 100' was conservative.

My new mission is to dive with you and try to get down to 70'....on AIR!

In Seattle I would use He on most dives because it was so cheap for me to do so. About 110 feet was the max I would do on Nitrox or Air and that was pushing it.

In PR, Warm, Clear, bright, Scootering, we would regularly go to 140 – 150 on air because He is just so expensive there. The warmth, clear, bright water combined with little effort made 150 equal to 110 feet in Puget Sound. YMMV

I dove deep air long long ago. But thats all we had. We'd dive, get narked, and keep doing it to get conditioned. Dives in the 180-200 range were pretty common on straight air.

I never dove deep air on OC once getting recertified a few years go, but have a few times on CCR. First time was just to understand how I'd react on CCR if I was on a rec dive, on straight 21% and some deeper emergency occurred (down well, rescue a diver that lost a wing, whatever) I'd know what to expect and what I can tolerate. That was to 174 without substantial impairment. I wasn't 100%, but I wasn't looped outa my gourd either.

So I don't fear it, frankly its not a big deal for me, but hitting 200ft with a clear head on mix is a much more pleasurable experience than straight air at 180.

Since I have my own fill station, can mix what I please, diving deep air on purpose, without an emergency reason for it, just seems rather foolish.

But I don't poo poo those that dive deep air, I just think it unwise.

we did a deep dive the other day, when i saw you pauli.. 138 feet, no big deal ..

spatman wrote:"slightrox"

awesome word creation Spatz!

Waynne Fowler wrote:

spatman wrote:"slightrox"

awesome word creation Spatz!

Wish I could take credit for it! I think I first heard it from Penopolypants many moons ago.

Jeff Pack wrote: That was to 174 without substantial impairment. I wasn't 100%, but I wasn't looped outa my gourd either.

I'm curious how you determined you were not substantially impaired at 174'. My understanding is that you can be dangerously impaired from narcosis without noticing it....you only find out when you unfortunately become task loaded...such as a situation where you need to assist a buddy in trouble. My understanding is also that this "not knowing" type is the most frequent type of narcosis....the less frequent types are where you know you are narced and it's obvious to you.

pensacoladiver wrote:You just don't know what you don't know.

Yeah what he said. I fall into that category. I will dive 21% to 150'+ and don't feel like I'm not with the program. I was with J Pack at Leshi wall that deep on tire gas. Only one time did I feel narced out of my head and I was on nitrox! It was only 25% O2 but still nitrox.
It comes down to money. I can't afford advanced nitrox, tec one, tec two, trimix one, trimix two. The only course of action for me right now is to stay shallow, i.e. 130' or less or I double the depth of stop on my computer. After my trip to the chamber I was educated about computer algorithms and how aggressive some are. So now if my computer says I owe three minutes at 10' I stay at 20' until that obligation clears. The obvious solution is to upgrade to a full Tec computer and buy the TDI tec manuals from DGX and do a self study course.
I may catch hell but I'm being honest about what I am doing.

Jeremy wrote:

Jeff Pack wrote: That was to 174 without substantial impairment. I wasn't 100%, but I wasn't looped outa my gourd either.

I'm curious how you determined you were not substantially impaired at 174'. My understanding is that you can be dangerously impaired from narcosis without noticing it....you only find out when you unfortunately become task loaded...such as a situation where you need to assist a buddy in trouble. My understanding is also that this "not knowing" type is the most frequent type of narcosis....the less frequent types are where you know you are narced and it's obvious to you.

I can only speak from personal experience, but much like having a couple beers or *cough cough* other forms of recreational relaxing, narcosis is a noticeable impairment. Especially when it starts to reach a point where it does affect my abilities. I know when I'm getting too buzzed to drive, and I can tell when I'm getting narked enough that it may cause a problem.

Everyone's different, though. Some folks are less attuned to their mental state than others.

Jeremy, have you ever experienced narcosis?

Jeremy wrote:

Jeff Pack wrote: That was to 174 without substantial impairment. I wasn't 100%, but I wasn't looped outa my gourd either.

I'm curious how you determined you were not substantially impaired at 174'. My understanding is that you can be dangerously impaired without noticing it....you only find out when you unfortunately become task loaded...such as a situation where you need to assist a buddy in trouble. My understanding is also that this "not knowing" type is the most frequent type of narcosis....the less frequent types are where you know you are narced and it's obvious to you.

Oh great! I have probably been narced out of my mind most of the time and just didn't know it! Thanks Jeremy!
On a more serious note... I am worried about becoming a statistic but just can't seem to stay inside NDL limits. So here is another can of worms. The same super agresive computer from my first post is the one that is telling me when I am or am not inside NDL. This is getting too deep, no pun intended.

spatman wrote:Jeremy, have you ever experienced narcosis?

Not that I'm aware of, and I've been to 125' at Muk many many times to see the boat and troll. Never felt narced at all.

However....I've seen a pretty famous youtube video of a man taken to 130' or so in a chamber. He was clearly impaired...slurred words...said dumb things....and had no idea. So I assume that I am narced at that depth even if I don't feel like I am and thus keep to the GUE recommended narcotic equivalent depth of 100' most of the time.....though I'll still hit some of the deep stuff at Muk occasionally with the right buddy. The MOD of 111' for 32% is a convenient excuse to not push it deeper though the real reason for me is the narcosis I assume I'm under, not the partial pressure.

ljjames wrote:We dived deep air because it was the only option. It was NOT a right of passage. My dive buddies and I stopped diving air past about 60' the day we got helium certs. That was in 1992-ish so I'm guessing we count as 'old-timers'.

I don't teach any more, and it's been like 100 years since I taught any tech, but in my experience the people who came to us for classes did so specifically because they didn't WANT to dive deep air. They had bigger plans that included deep wrecks and walls, and wanted to remember the dive.

Just out of curiosity how much did a cert to dive trimix cost 100 years ago? It appears to me that unless I want to part with $2K I can't discover the wonders of trimix.

Mateo1147 wrote:

Jeremy wrote:

Jeff Pack wrote: That was to 174 without substantial impairment. I wasn't 100%, but I wasn't looped outa my gourd either.

I'm curious how you determined you were not substantially impaired at 174'. My understanding is that you can be dangerously impaired without noticing it....you only find out when you unfortunately become task loaded...such as a situation where you need to assist a buddy in trouble. My understanding is also that this "not knowing" type is the most frequent type of narcosis....the less frequent types are where you know you are narced and it's obvious to you.

Oh great! I have probably been narced out of my mind most of the time and just didn't know it! Thanks Jeremy!

Brah....pretty sure you're narced even on the surface..

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9zqAfcRPC0U

Narcosis at 130'

Jeremy wrote:

Mateo1147 wrote:

Jeremy wrote:

Jeff Pack wrote: That was to 174 without substantial impairment. I wasn't 100%, but I wasn't looped outa my gourd either.

I'm curious how you determined you were not substantially impaired at 174'. My understanding is that you can be dangerously impaired without noticing it....you only find out when you unfortunately become task loaded...such as a situation where you need to assist a buddy in trouble. My understanding is also that this "not knowing" type is the most frequent type of narcosis....the less frequent types are where you know you are narced and it's obvious to you.

Oh great! I have probably been narced out of my mind most of the time and just didn't know it! Thanks Jeremy!

Brah....pretty sure you're narced even on the surface..

Deep air? We don't need no stinking deep air!