Diving Realities:my two cents

[gcbryan]

The reality of diving is that it involves a personal accessment of risk/reward. This is a personal accessment. Others cannot do it for you. Others have opinions but the accessment is personal.

The fortunate thing (if one can call anything about an accident fortunate) is that most accidents are easily prevented. It's usually not a matter of more training, changing the rules, or any other more complicated matters. It's just a matter of using good judgement (which again is personal).

Experience usually eliminates the more serious accidents (but not always). Running out of air and panicking seems to have been the cause of most recent OC deaths at Cove 2. Everyone is trained to monitor their air. More training isn't the problem when a tank is drained. Gas Management would be helpful for lesser issues but everyone knows not to drain their tank. You can train not to panick but using good judgement is really the only solution and I'm not sure you can teach that. Experience usually improves ones abilities and reduces the liklihood of panic but personal judgement is what it is.

I would personally rather see a subject like solo diving addressed objectively with newer divers. I think it's more effective to be realistic and describe why it's not for newer divers and for many divers it may never be a good idea. I think if the dangers are exaggerated the lessons may be ignored.

Diving dangers aren't separate from the rest of the dangers in our life. Again, it's a risk/reward calculation. What sense does it make to exaggerate
solo diving dangers simply because one person doesn't choose to do it unless all equal dangers in our life's that are controllable are also refrained from. Being opposed to solo diving but having no problem paragliding/motocycle riding/technical diving/flying and whatever other activities we all participate in is not rationally dealing with these problems.

Good judgement, even barely reasonable judgement would have eliminated many (most) of these accidents. Apart from that, s#it happens in diving as in life and that is life.

[Marc]

Please refrain from posting reasonable comments on this subject.

[gcbryan]

Please refrain from posting reasonable comments on this subject.

It's out of character I know.

[mattwave]

Grey I have been thinking about this a lot these last few days, and when I purchased the shop I was just about to start my Paragliding Instructor Training, and my instructor is one of the best in the world. I use to argue that solo diving was no different that paragliding with many people in the air with you. You are still by yourself right, he made a good point which intern saved my buddy's life a month ago in mexico. We were flying in some big air and he spun and landed in a tree. If we had not been in the air with radios to call for assistance he may have not made it. As it was even with rescue assistance request he hung upside down for 2 hours.

I don't motorcycle ride, or do most of the other activities you had mentioned, but for years I instructed Whitewater kayaking and even though you are alone in your kayak we always made sure when we were in the river or creek only as a group, many a person survived an ugly swim because there was someone there to rescue them, I good buddy. Some did not.

In fact as with Technical diving it is so important not to only have a solid dive buddy underwater, but a Technical Support Leader on the surface ready to assist with any rescue without having deco obligations of their own.

My opinion is that the best rescue you can perform is the one you avoid, but some rescues are unavoidable, best to be prepared rather than alone.

[Sounder]

Seriously guys... these posts are inappropriately rational and logical.

[gcbryan]

I agree that a good buddy is the best solution. A good buddy is not always available and just any buddy is not always the best choice.

Diving is more unforgiving than most other sports. Your paragliding buddy survived after hanging for 2 hours. That doesn't work in diving.

[Grateful Diver]

If someone had been diving with Josh maybe they could have been of some help to him or perhaps not but it's pretty certain that they would have been in effect diving solo as far as their own safety was concerned wouldn't you agree?

It really depends on the state of mind Joshua was in at the time he needed rescuing. If he panicked, his dive buddy was in worse shape than if he were diving solo ... he was diving with someone who could be a danger to him.

Peter DenHaan ... NAUI's most senior PNW representative ... once told me about OW students that you have to treat them as though you are in the water with a bunch of people who are actively trying to kill you.

The same can be said about a panicking diver.

How can this in any way be construed as somehow safer than being in the water alone?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[mattwave]

Your paragliding buddy survived after hanging for 2 hours. That doesn't work in diving.

No, 2 hours is a long time to hang in a tree unconcious and upside down, but he could have been there for days if no one was there. Years ago a solo pilot was flying in Eastern Wa. when he landed in a tree, a mountain by a busy road, but he wasn't found until days later. Right now I am sure impressed how the PG community learned from that tragedy for years making one man's death a lasting lesson.

Here at NWSD we teach a Rescue in every Scuba Diver (OW) class because it is a NAUI standard and because every diver should have been taught this skill. Peter Den Haan west coast NAUI/NAUI-Tec Representative does not support Solo diving as an exceptable part of any recreational dive plan.

[Grateful Diver]

Here at NWSD we teach a Rescue in every Scuba Diver (OW) class because it is a NAUI standard and because every diver should have been taught this skill. Peter Den Haan west coast NAUI/NAUI-Tec Representative does not support Solo diving as an exceptable part of any recreational dive plan.

Every NAUI instructor teaches that way ... it's part of standards.

And I wasn't implying that Peter, or anyone else at NAUI, supported solo diving.

This thread's about diving realities ... the reality is that if you're diving with someone who's panicked, or with OW students, you must consider that you are putting yourself in the same ... or worse ... risks as you would if you WERE solo diving ... because if something happens to you, there's no one in the water who is capable of helping you ... and may, in fact, do you more harm than good.

Most instructors understand that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[LCF]

I remember my OW/AOW instructor telling me that, as far as he was concerned, when he was diving with students he was diving solo. I found it humiliating and painful, but he was probably somewhat right. But of course, it's like GUE instructors teaching Fundies. GUE doesn't approve of solo diving, but that instructor is to all intents and purposes solo. But he's in doubles, in 25 feet of water, in a known site which is just this side of confined water in terms of hazards, and he's a guy with a boatload of experience in much deeper and scarier dives, who's managed through some problems and knows how he reacts and copes.

It's like anything else: If you are going to increase the risk in one area, you decrease it as much as possible in others. If you're going to test new equipment, you do it in a pool or on a shallow, easy dive, and maybe warn your buddy that you're using something you're unsure of. If I go to look at a horse for sale, I make the seller ride it first, so I don't get blindsided. If you're going to dive by yourself, make sure you're set up to minimize the foreseeable risks of doing so, and do what you can to make sure you're physically and psychologically prepared for self-rescue.

But as Bob keeps saying, if you don't know what you don't know, you can't make good decisions. Like me, going to 130 feet in Molokinin on an Al80 on my 10th dive -- I didn't know what I didn't know, and luckily, Murphy didn't come visit me, or I wouldn't be annoying all my friends with my posts in these threads :-)

[gcbryan]

...

But as Bob keeps saying, if you don't know what you don't know, you can't make good decisions. Like me, going to 130 feet in Molokinin on an Al80 on my 10th dive -- I didn't know what I didn't know, and luckily, Murphy didn't come visit me, or I wouldn't be annoying all my friends with my posts in these threads :-)

I remember some of your earlier posts Lynne and I continue to find this fascinating. You are now one of the most fastidious divers in terms of preparation, you are obviously intelligent and educated and yet at a time when you were posting that while descending you frequently fell over backward and descended uncontrollably on your back you still thought it was a good idea for you to go to 130 fsw on your 10th dive just because no one told you otherwise!

I'm sure even in a PADI class they discouraged that kind of thing. I really would be interested in what your thought process was at the time if you care to share.

[Grateful Diver]

I remember some of your earlier posts Lynne and I continue to find this fascinating. You are now one of the most fastidious divers in terms of preparation, you are obviously intelligent and educated and yet at a time when you were posting that while descending you frequently fell over backward and descended uncontrollably on your back you still thought it was a good idea for you to go to 130 fsw on your 10th dive just because no one told you otherwise!

Big difference between going to 130 in Molokini and in Puget Sound. I can relate ... prior to my taking Advanced Nitrox a year and a half ago, my deepest dive was in Bali when I was a very new diver ... I went to 137 on an AL80 and air, and saw absolutely nothing wrong with it. The water was so clear I could still see the surface, after all.

I'm sure even in a PADI class they discouraged that kind of thing.

I'm not so sure ... many instructors manage to encourage their students to take risks they might, perhaps, not realize they're encouraging by making it sound so easy.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Ken G]

I remember some of your earlier posts Lynne and I continue to find this fascinating. You are now one of the most fastidious divers in terms of preparation, you are obviously intelligent and educated and yet at a time when you were posting that while descending you frequently fell over backward and descended uncontrollably on your back you still thought it was a good idea for you to go to 130 fsw on your 10th dive just because no one told you otherwise!

Big difference between going to 130 in Molokini and in Puget Sound. I can relate ... prior to my taking Advanced Nitrox a year and a half ago, my deepest dive was in Bali when I was a very new diver ... I went to 137 on an AL80 and air, and saw absolutely nothing wrong with it. The water was so clear I could still see the surface, after all.

I'm sure even in a PADI class they discouraged that kind of thing.

I'm not so sure ... many instructors manage to encourage their students to take risks they might, perhaps, not realize they're encouraging by making it sound so easy.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Going to 130fsw on air with an Alum 80 was just a standard part of my PADI AOW. At the time I did not think twice about it. Looking back Im a little shocked that this is the norm. We were told told by the instructor the only thing to worry about was the narcosis we might feel at depth. No word about emergency plans or gas management. Also this was on rental equipment that does not get serviced until it breaks which seems to be fairly common in Thailand where I did my AOW. I was so naive. Live and learn......

[Sounder]

What's wrong with diving to 130fsw on an Al80 full of air? ](*,)

[Jabberjaw]

What's wrong with diving to 130fsw on an Al80 full of air? ](*,)

Nothing Sounder as long as that donkey you take with you farts air.
Boy Bob, you have much to teach young grasshopper here.

[Maverick]

What's wrong with diving to 130fsw on an Al80 full of air? ](*,)

Dah, the amount of air and of course lack of redundancy, assuming there was no pony or dive plan.

A leisure swim down to 130fsw on an 80cf tank eaves you wth very little air for a safe ascend. now if you were to just drop as fast as you could to 130fsw and hang out for a few then ascend at a safe pace you would most likely be fine, but most people who still dive Al80 just end up at 130fsw with out planning on going down there and run out of are on the way up and or get into trouble and don't have the gass supply to solve a problem that occured.

In my Adv. nitrox and deco classes we learned how to plan air into the dive plan so we know how much we would need and how much extra to have, and how much of our back gas we would need to safely complete our deco if we lost our rich deco gas. whether it is to a free flow or a missing bottle if it was left on a line or other.

Plan your dive and dive you plan
MAverick

[straitscuba]

The Deep Dive in the PADI Course is supposed to be conducted between 60 and 100 feet. Standards may be different in Thailand, but in the US you are not supposed to take any recreational student that deep.

[Sounder]

Perfect response!

If anyone missed the sarcasm in my "question," it's thick. For the record, I wouldn't do that dive for many reasons... but I think we've covered that recently in another thread.

Preach on Reverend Mav!! We need more people talking up gas management and contingency planning!!!

[Sounder]

The Deep Dive in the PADI Course is supposed to be conducted between 60 and 100 feet. Standards may be different in Thailand, but in the US you are not supposed to take any recreational student that deep.

Really?! Hmmm... that doesn't jive with some of what we've heard recently. Can someone clairify?

[Grateful Diver]

What's wrong with diving to 130fsw on an Al80 full of air? ](*,)

Nothing Sounder as long as that donkey you take with you farts air.
Boy Bob, you have much to teach young grasshopper here.

He's a quick learner ... he's already learned that diving to 130 on an AL80 full of air is much better than diving to 130 on an AL80 half-full of air ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Ken G]

The Deep Dive in the PADI Course is supposed to be conducted between 60 and 100 feet. Standards may be different in Thailand, but in the US you are not supposed to take any recreational student that deep.

My thoughts exactly

[scottsax]

The Deep Dive in the PADI Course is supposed to be conducted between 60 and 100 feet. Standards may be different in Thailand, but in the US you are not supposed to take any recreational student that deep.

Really?! Hmmm... that doesn't jive with some of what we've heard recently. Can someone clairify?

According to my PADI AOW book, page 67, "As a new Open Water Diver, 18 metres/60 feet marks the depth limit to which you're qualified to dive. This limit isn't arbitrary-it's baed on no decompression limits, nitrogen narcosis and air supply-but even if you've only made a few dives, you may be curious about deeper dives, perhaps simply to visit specific dive sites below 18 metres/60 feet. The Deep Adventue Dive will satisfy some of this curiosity and give you access to some of those dive sites by qualifying you to dive as deep as 30 metres/100 feet, in conditions as good or better than those in which you have training and experience."

So, I read 29 pages, took a 2 page, open-book quiz, and did a dive at the Muk where I bounced to 97 feet. Therefore, I'm qualified to dive to 100 fsw. I'm starting to see some flaws in my AOW certification....

[straitscuba]

The Deep Dive in the PADI Course is supposed to be conducted between 60 and 100 feet. Standards may be different in Thailand, but in the US you are not supposed to take any recreational student that deep.

Really?! Hmmm... that doesn't jive with some of what we've heard recently. Can someone clairify?

I will have to check my OWSI manual again tommorow but I am almost positive that it is a violation of standards to take any student on a training dive deeper than 100fsw and in cold water or limited vis you are supposed to adjust that depth accordingly. Not that that means that the instructors follow that standard and any student that doesn't know any better won't know that. When I did my DM and IDC I was a little disturbed by the level of competency that other DM and OWSI candidates had. Some had less than 30 dives at the start of the course! Most had not mastered bouyancy, many didn't have the basic skills down. You have to have a minimum of 100 dives to be certified as an OWSI, I don't know how that stacks up to other agancies, but it seems like far too few dives to be teaching someone else. The only thing I can say is check out your instructor before you take a class. Seek out the best that you can find, if you are already certified and going for a higher rating then make them dive with you before you take a course. Have them provide you with a list of students that you can contact that will reccomend them as an instructor. Call the training agency (NAUI, PADI, SSI) and get info from them about the instructor.

[Sounder]

What's wrong with diving to 130fsw on an Al80 full of air? ](*,)

Nothing Sounder as long as that donkey you take with you farts air.
Boy Bob, you have much to teach young grasshopper here.

He's a quick learner ... he's already learned that diving to 130 on an AL80 full of air is much better than diving to 130 on an AL80 half-full of air ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Priceless.

[Solitude Diver]

1 Not to dive
2 Dive with experienced buddy
3 Deep dives < 130 ft
4 Solo
5 Dive with new (inexperienced) diver
6 Wreck penetration/Caves
7 Deep Decompression diving

That is about how I’d rank them in order of risk. I know divers in each of these categories. People have died in each of these categories (including the first), but yet for some reason only the solo category gets suggested as taboo and meets the opposition that it does. I wonder why that is?

I am sure there are non-divers who would tell you that anyone who goes past the first line (not diving) is putting themselves at unreasonable risk. And they may be right. But everyone on this board picks which category he/she wants to dive in and should get to do so without having to be subjected to the opinions of those who think they know what is right for everyone else.