Where to start?

[Gill Envy]

sorry for the hijack, but elizabeth and I will be doing a night dive this evening at Alki, we are heading over to the "I" beams then making our way over to cove 3 along the dock boundary line. If anyone cares to join us, drop me a line. we are up for about 5 to 10 minutes of deco max, air dilluent, 60-90 minute bottom time. tomorrow we are headed up north for a kayak dive to sare's head if anyone cares to join us on that as well (you will need your own kayak though).

and what's with the snow?!?!

:occasion5:
g

[mattwave]

Anyone that tells you that they want a CCR to save money is either deluding themselves or completely full of SH*T.

- John

I beg to differ John, you are the last person I want to challenge, buuuuut - the 146 CCR mixed gas dives I did in 2007 would have cost me over $6000 in helium alone on OC, (Sad I have been up since 4am with a calculator) I do know that my total helium usage was approx 580cf cost around $490 (Thanks to the AP Dive Log) - That's some savings.

disclaimer: This post does not imply that John is anything less than the ultimate NWDC guru, and all content of this post does not reflect the opinions of the NWDC organization. All complaints may be submitted in writing to the forum Moderators as this post may be subject to ridicule.

[John Rawlings]

Hee Hee Hee.....I stand corrected!

What I should have said is that anyone NOT diving as much or more than Matt is full of SH*T if they think that they will save money on a CCR! HA!

Dude! I'm surprised that you remember how to WALK!

- John

[ArcticDiver]

Back after a few days well off the road system. It sure is NOISY here in town.

Anyway, from what has been posted a CCR is useful for just about any kind of serious diving; it is manageable by anyone who has, or is willing to adopt, a detailed operational methodology; and who is willing to spend the time and money to select THE CCR that is right for them, together with some first class training.

I think it would be just the ticket for the kinds of diving I prefer to do.

[Joshua Smith]

Back after a few days well off the road system. It sure is NOISY here in town.

Anyway, from what has been posted a CCR is useful for just about any kind of serious diving; it is manageable by anyone who has, or is willing to adopt, a detailed operational methodology; and who is willing to spend the time and money to select THE CCR that is right for them, together with some first class training.

I think it would be just the ticket for the kinds of diving I prefer to do.

Yep- I think you summed it up pretty well. Once you're adapted to the "downside"- cost, increased maintenance, monitoring p02 constantly during a dive, etc- the "upside" is freaking awesome, and well worth the trade-off, IMO.

And if anyone's seriously thinking about crossing over, I'd highly recommend going to this event:


http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com/si ... scuba.html


You can try out all the major brands in the pool, hear presentations from different experts, ask questions, and so on. Well
worth the price of admission.

[ArcticDiver]

Hmmm, that event sure does look inviting. But (there is always a "but" isn't there) that is a long and expensive way from Interior Alaska. Still, I've been wanting to make another trip down to your country for some diving. Last time, among other things, I was having some trouble with some horrible Atomic M1s. Now, I've got good regs and haven't been wet enough this year.

So, where is Mill Creek? Last time Grateful diver was gracious and allowed me to stay with him. Assuming I was able to prevail on him again is this convenient? Can I link in some diving with other folks over a few days so I can justify the trip to my "supervisor"?

[Pez7378]

Mill Creek is just North of Bothell and just South of Everett. It's a fair distance from Bobs Place in Federal Way. I'm considering attending the "RB Experience" just to see all the different units, and how they compare. I'll probably hook up with Matt at NWSD too to check out the Evolution. I don't plan on making any quick decisions on this idea, it could be years, but I do plan on educating myself so that if or when I decide to go CC I'll be fully prepared to drop the chedder. Just like OC, there are many varying opinions on the pros and cons of CC diving. I'll explore all of them.

[Tangfish]

I or anyone else here, were beginning to think that they may want to learn CCR diving, where would they start? ... I have only four dives in double cylinders...

It took me about that many dives with doubles on my back to start thinking about ways to lighten the load as well.

[loanwolf]

i added up my trimix bills for the year so far and i have spent more than 4k on OC. Nitrox for deco and OC dives over 5k and that was till March before i got the rEvo. now it is very little. 2 dives to 320 feet cost's just under $500 OC, $50 on CCR. the economics work out if you dive the rig. DM'ing classes on OC i spend over $100 a day on Nitrox (3 sets of twins plus deco gas) on CCR 19 cf of O2 = $5, $5 in sorb, bailout gas for a total of 10 or 15 dollars to do the same thing.

[Pez7378]

I or anyone else here, were beginning to think that they may want to learn CCR diving, where would they start? ... I have only four dives in double cylinders...

It took me about that many dives with doubles on my back to start thinking about ways to lighten the load as well.

You caught me Calvin.

[butters]

Interesting thread, I'm curious about rebreathers to, ever since I read about thay guy dave shaw who died in africa diving that hole. He went to 800 feet and died trying to bring back a body of another diver- really spooky story, not sure I'd ever dive one of those things, but they're interesting!

[Dmitchell]

What Dave Shaw did has nothing to do with day to day CCR diving. The fact is that because of CCR, he could have accomplished the dive had IMO, he planned a little better. Also, IMO he should have aborted the dive immediately when things went downhill. Watch the video if you want to really see what happens. - This comes from an Armchair QB (me) who never intends to anywhere that deep. I do have a mission that we want to accomplish at 365' but that's another story.

Based on my SAC, an Aluminum 80 would last me about 4 minutes at 800' How many tanks would it take to do that dive on OC?

Average Recreational or Technical diving on a rebreather is perfectly save so long as the operator knows what the heck they are doing and is diving within their limits.

I believe that in 10 years most divers doing anything beyond 60' reef dives is going to be on some sort of rebreather.

Dave

[Joshua Smith]

Dave Mitchell said it right- What Dave Shaw did was amazing, but he was on the extreme outer edge of what CCR divers do- I started diving one 9 months ago, and I feel fine, thank you very much! Seriously, I agree with Dave- many, many technical divers have made the switch, and more are going CCR every year- as well as (some) recreational divers. CCRs are an amazing tool who's advantages can't be ignored, particularly for dives in excess of 200 fsw. Yes, they are dangerous. But with proper training and diligence, those risks can be minimized to a level I'm perfectly comfortable with.

[Tom Nic]

I believe that in 10 years most divers doing anything beyond 60' reef dives is going to be on some sort of rebreather.

Dave

Very interesting Dave. Is that a hunch, or...?

I know that scuba technology has really jumped ahead, even in just the last 10 years. Even the crappiest regs available today are light years ahead of what was available 15 years ago.

The wide acceptance of Nitrox as a recreational gas is a relatively recent development, as is the wide use of Trimix on technical dives.

I guess the difference is that those are uses of gas, not the equipment that we breathe them through, which a rebreather is.

I'd love to hear opinions on what ya'all think needs to take place technologically for rebreathers to become more widely used - and eventually recreationally. Thoughts? General pontificating? Pointless obfuscation? Mindless meanderings? Come on, the board is WAY too quiet today!

[Dmitchell]

Mostly a hunch but given the industry, and the way that technology jumps in leaps and bounds, the internet, and the added safety regarding decompression. I think it's coming.

Just look at what has happened in the last 6 or so years with the concept of DIR, While most folks are not "DIR" a huge percentage of the really active diving community has adopted the principles of the gear configuration if not completely, at least in part. I would say that this explosion is a large part internet driven. I can also tell you that I probably sell 10 BP/W for every other BC. I don't even stock anything else anymore.

Now, I think that it's starting to become the rebreather's turn. Here's an example, when I joined the Decostop in 2004, most of the folks on there were OC divers. Now, if I go to Rebreatherworld, there are alot of the same people who just like me converted over to CCR. Also, alot of the big name exploration divers have if not switched completely, added a CCR to their equipment.

Last year at DEMA, Bill Stone and Richard Pyle were pimping a new CIS that is supposed to be marketed to the recreational diver. It was pretty well laughed at by the diving community but, given these guys knowledge and background, don't think that it won't work. If not this unit, there will be another one.

Just my observations!

Dave

[Joshua Smith]

I think we have a ways to go before we get there- OC scuba is really reliable- accidents and deaths from equipment failures are exceedingly rare. The same can not be said of CCRs, unfortunately. Looking at accident analyses, one can usually find "Operator error" at the heart of most CCR deaths- (this can be, and is being, hotly debated even as we speak)

So, often, when a CCR diver dies, it's an equipment problem, and when an open circuit diver dies, it's not an equipment problem.

The CCR equipment problems can be minimized, if not eliminated, through scrupulous use of pre-dive checklists and proper training.

OC tolerates a much greater margin of error than CCR, from an equipment standpoint, in other words. And for that reason- I see the majority of recreational divers on open circuit for a long time to come. But for technical divers, CCR offers huge advantages. And since technical divers, as a whole, are more willing to accept a greater amount of pre-dive planning and work than a diver who just wants to strap on an al80 and go have fun above 100', the added complexity of a CCR isn't too daunting.

Naui's official stance is that dives deeper than 250' should be done on a CCR- (I've read that online, and heard if from Naui instructors, so I think it's a fact, but I'm not 100% positive) My personal feeling is that CCRs should be used below 200', but to each their own- lord knows there are plenty of people doing deeper dives than I ever will on OC. But OC tech divers are converting to CCR every day- and I think the majority of people doing tech dives will be on CCRs in 10 years- that's my guess.

[butters]

So, do you have to learn how to dive with double tanks and stuff first, before you can dive a rebreather?

[Dmitchell]

NO!

Alot of people do but, if you are progressing up the ladder and think you might want to transition to CCR, I would get with an instructor and go through all you questions with her. Then maybe do one of her rebreather experiences and go from there.

I've heard of people with less than 50 dives transitioning to CCR and never looking back. It all depends on the diver.

Dave

[butters]

Wow- I didnt know you could just start diving them like that, Im trying to decide what to do next, maybe I should be thinking about a rebreather!

[Joshua Smith]

Wow- I didnt know you could just start diving them like that, Im trying to decide what to do next, maybe I should be thinking about a rebreather!

Well, maybe. They're not for everyone, and they are bloody expensive. What kind of diving do you want to use it for? If the answer is "deep technical diving", I would say that you should really take a long, hard look at them, and learn as much as you can- start poking around http://www.rebreatherworld.com for example- If you're really curious, send me a PM, maybe we could get together for a dive sometime, and I'll show you how my Meg works.

[Dmitchell]

If the answer is "deep technical diving"

- C'mon Josh! There's other reasons! Though I prefer yours....

How about:
long 60-150' ish dives with little or no deco,
photography dives, (quiet)
potential 3 hour dives, (warm)
and a host of other things that you might be limited on diving OC.

Dave

[Joshua Smith]

Those are all good reasons, too- especially photography.

[Tangfish]

There's no substitute for trying the various models out before making the decision about which way to spend a healthy chunk of change. Going in, I thought that I would've ended up in a KISS. I love the whole philosophy behind the design. In the end though, I just ended up feeling more comfortable in the Meg. These types of things can't be predicted ahead of time, or by sitting there and thinking about it based on design and what other people say. It's kind of like trying to decide what your favorite food would be by listening to others talk about theirs.