Drysuit training

[girldiver]

Recently, I had two of my students come to me with drysuits purchased from shops in the area and asked me to teach them how to dive the suits. Apparently, the shops are selling the suits but not providing training? I'm not charging these students for the orientation...it's part of what they get for being my students. But...what if they weren't? Would they experiment on their own?

I know that I lived a sheltered existence when I first came into the scuba world...but the store that I managed would always do an orientation dive with a new drysuit diver if they were diving dry for the first time. It just really didn't seem like good customer service...or...if we were to advertise that we were an instructional facility...the profit made on a drysuit was certainly enough for an orientation dive. They didn't happen often...maybe 5 or 6 per year...so it wasn't so hard to do.

Just wondering if I'm naive? It kinda seems dangerous...and there's been far too many posts on this board of people buying suits for the first time and needing help. I guess I thought they were buying used...but perhaps not???

[bmcsteve]

I know that my favorite shop offers free training with the purchase of a dry suit.... new or used. I cant really fathom a local shop not offering that service. Just my .02

[dwashbur]

I was supposed to get a pool session with my dry suit when I bought it, but I was going to have to wait a week or so and I'm not that patient. I went to an easy, non-current site (Harper's Ferry) and experimented until I figured it out. By the time the pool session came available, I didn't need it.

[girldiver]

Dave,

That may have been ok for you...but you had quite a few dives under your belt, right?? One of the couples (girl my student, guy not...) had less than 10 dives each. Here's the suit...and good luck??

This particular couple waited to contact me...not wanting to bother me...and tried it twice on their own...both times were pretty dangerous experiences, and thankfully, they finally called me. I tell my students who are trained in wetsuits that when they get a drysuit, I'll be happy to go diving with them. However, since its a shop selling the suit and making the profit...not me...I certainly don't have the budget to rent a pool for an intro pool session.

And hearing that it's not that uncommon...well, that's bothersome.

[Pinkpadigal]

I have heard of shops not offering free orentations for used suits they sell, or when suits are sold off the rack "as is" or on clearance. Also, if the store uses contracted instructors, it may be a situation where the shop won't pay an instructor to do one, and the instructor won't work for free. And, there are situations where divers don't want to wait for a drysuit orentation and go out and experiment on their own. (as in Dave Washburn's case). In about 1/2 the suits I sell, the purchaser has already dove dry so it isn't something they need. Everyone else normally goes for the drysuit certification, which I include as part of my drysuit packages.

[girldiver]

So, you include a certification as part of the drysuit package...? The one student was diving a Whites Fusion...and I thought she had purchased it there. Would you do a certification for her...as she's really not happy with the experience she's had with this suit so far. Will you do a pool session with her as well?

[dwashbur]

Cindy,
That was a description, not a recommendation. I should have made that clear. For most people, and especially new divers like you describe, they should definitely get some kind of in-water orientation as part of the deal. And yes, I was probably a special case, for more than one reason. First, I did have over 100 dives and was inches away from completing my DM. Second, I'm just naturally the kind of guy who, when I get a new toy, has to analyze it from every angle to figure out as much as I can about it (this usually involves taking it apart to see what makes it tick, though that would have been difficult to do with a dry suit ). So I was comfortable figuring it out on my own. Most divers aren't that goofy, and I would really have liked to have at least the pool session. An OW session would have been even better, especially for figuring out weighting issues. Even better would be if all shops took Amy's approach and included the certification as part of the deal. But that's just me...

[Aquanautchuck]

I almost think that not including at least a orientation is criminal and leaves the shop wide open for a law suit. When I was a working DM the shop I worked mostly through included at least a pool session orientation with every dry suit purchased new. They paid me like $35 to do one on a regular pool night. It's scary thinking that some people buy a dry suit and go diving without any training at all. I am not all that sure having the certification is worth it. (I got one) but a good hour or so in the pool with a DM should give you everything you need.

Just my nickels worth.

[dwashbur]

It's scary thinking that some people buy a dry suit and go diving without any training at all.

I'm not sure why it would be scary, especially in my case where my biggest problem was, I couldn't descend. At the same time, there's diving and then there's diving. Going to Day Island Wall at high current and going to 100 feet without any knowledge of the suit, yeah, that could be scary. Harper's ferry, where there's no current and the max depth is about 30 feet (or, for that matter, we've done 2 hour dives in 11 fsw under the pier), well, that's different At the same time, as I said, I don't recommend doing it the way I did. The main reason I went ahead and dove the suit was because patience is not one of my virtues. A couple of other reasons were a) I knew I would be able to figure it out safely, and b) I've never claimed to be completely sane.

[Aquanautchuck]

I was not talking about you Dave, just the fact that there are dive shops that don't at least give a pool orientation on a dry suit purchase. That is the least I would expect unless I was already a dry suit diver.

[dwashbur]

I was not talking about you Dave, just the fact that there are dive shops that don't at least give a pool orientation on a dry suit purchase. That is the least I would expect unless I was already a dry suit diver.

Agreed.

[Cuppie]

the local shop that i worked at would have the drysuit orientation for free, but the catch is...they would not offer it out in the open. if someone asked, then of course we do that. if nothing was mentioned then nothing was said. and usually the manager would take the customer to the pool and show them the ropes. i don't really agree with the policy of not saying anything until asked about it but that was the way they ran the shop. and i think that is the way a lot of the shops operate.

[Sudie]

I can't begin to fathom that one. It's just common sense to do the orientation as part of the cost of the suit. But then again part of the sales process is learning if someone dove dry before. If they have, then they don't really need orientation. If they haven't it's an automatic "So let's get you fitted out and find a calendar date to do orientation"

[Cuppie]

i agree. that is just one reason i don't work with them anymore. they were just not into educating the new divers to the fullest.

[fishman]

Alright now you guys freaked me out. I was just going to have my buddy that sold me his drysuit take me out and show me how to use it. Now I'm going to schedule a pool session with my instructor. It'll probably be better to find out if it leaks in a pool first anyway.

Fishman

[girldiver]

Fishman...

Definitely schedule something with your instructor. It will not only be safer, but will also lessen the time for you to get comfortable in the suit. We not only teach you how to dive the suit...but also how to care for the suit. Learning how to move the air around in your suit, not to get stuck upside down...do out of control ascents...etc, etc. And how to dive warm...like by using your suit for buoyancy instead of your BCD.

Your instructor really IS a necessary person to keep around as you progress in your scuba training. New gear...new experiences.

Best of luck...and let us know how it goes and how much you learn, so that others will see the benefits.

[Cuppie]

i sort of disagree with you on using the drysuit for buoyancy. i think that the dry suit should only be used for relieving the squeeze and not for buoyancy. BCD is for buoyancy comp device. i think when a diver gets comfortable with the drysuit they will understand the concept of letting air out of a BCD and adding some the drysuit to help with a chill. but it is a scary thought to tell a new drysuiter to use the drysuit for buoyancy, drysuits don't vent for emergency situations. just my 2psi

[Zen Diver]

i sort of disagree with you on using the drysuit for buoyancy. i think that the dry suit should only be used for relieving the squeeze and not for buoyancy. BCD is for buoyancy comp device. i think when a diver gets comfortable with the drysuit they will understand the concept of letting air out of a BCD and adding some the drysuit to help with a chill. but it is a scary thought to tell a new drysuiter to use the drysuit for buoyancy, drysuits don't vent for emergency situations. just my 2psi

Totally depends on your school of thought, and the type of drysuit. Nothing wrong with trying both methods and seeing what works for you.

[Grateful Diver]

Also depends on the type of diving you plan to do.

For properly weighted recreational divers, it isn't going to make much difference, because you won't be cycling a lot of gas through either to compensate for depth changes.

On the other hand, people who dive large tanks or doubles generally do not use their drysuit for buoyancy control, because at the beginning of the dive you have to offset the weight of all that gas in your tank(s) ... and using your drysuit to compensate for 10-20 lbs of gas will create a big enough bubble in the suit that managing it becomes a problem.

Likewise, if you dive habitually overweighted you'll have more difficult managing buoyancy control in a drysuit than you will in a BCD or wing.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[LCF]

It's really interesting, how I have cycled through the drysuit buoyancy/squeeze issues. I initially tried to use my dry suit for buoyancy, because that's what I was taught, and it resulted in me having a great difficulties with instability. Before Fundies, I went to only offsetting squeeze, and being fairly conservative with THAT, and buoyancy control got much easier. But working with Andrew Georgitsis this winter, we were told to run as much of the buoyancy gas in our suits as we could, for very much the same reasons that I was given in the first place -- warmer, less task loading on ascents. I was dubious at first, but when one of the premier tech diving instructors in the world tells you to do it that way, you pretty much at least have to try it. And in fact, it works. But you really have to be on top of suit volume to do precise ascents and stops with a full suit.

[girldiver]

That's exciting for me to hear that Andrew teaches that way. That's the way I was trained (non-GUE) and I've always taught. So, to hear that he teaches it...well, that's cool, as I have huge respect for him.

Recently I had my neck seal replaced and the one I have now is a bit too big. Thought it would work, I tried it on prior to installation and it seemed to fit...but underwater, it lets the air out...so it's no ones fault. Nevertheless...it prevents me from inflating my suit for all of my buoyancy. Wow...going the other way...using the BCD for buoyancy and the drysuit to keep the squeeze off is more "thought consuming", more task loading and I'm definitely not as warm.

While I hate to pay to replace a perfectly good neck seal...I'm about to bite it and do it...just to get my full suit buoyancy back.

[BASSMAN]

I bought my drysuit, used, from craigslist. Not knowing the first thing about how to properly use a drysuit, I had my OW instructor teach me for $50.00, no pool/no cert. We simply went to Les Davis and she showed me the basics and a few skills and that was it, pretty simple, but necessary. When a friend of mine got his dry suit within a few weeks of my training I showed him what was tought to me and all was good.
That being said,
another friend of mine bought a dry suit and asked me to show him how to use it and we went to Three Tree N.
Things did not go well, due to an improperly fitted dry suit. During the initial ascent, my friend, had problems and could not breath and went in to a full on panic at the surface and we aborted any sort of dive / training that day. I told him he should go back to the shop that sold him the suit and get a better fitting suit and some pool instruction. And that is all in process now. When he first bought the suit, I believe the shop offered to give him the orientation, but he said he had a friend that was going to show him, "Me"
I would think twice about who I would give any help with that sort of thing again especially if it was offered at the shop.
I felt that dry suit basics were just that, but I know now, there is always the whole Murphy thing lurking aroud the corner.
Bottom line: "I may be trained to the level of Rescue Diver, but I am not a DM or an Instructor."
Thank you Cindy and all the other Instuctors and DM's for doing what you do!

[BASSMAN]

Oh and one more thing, When I started diving Dry I was told to use only enough air to ofset the sqeeze.
I now prefer to use just my dry suit for bouyancy underwater and as a side benifit I am also warmer. Maybe it will be different when I get my Weezle
I also saw that in the Viking training video I got with my dry gloves. {Dry suit underwater and BCD above the water}
I like the thought of managing just one airspace / valve while I'm underwater.
some times I will use a little bit of air in my BC for certain trim. {air in my feet and a little in my BC}

Not a Law , just a personal preference.

Keith.

[Joshua Smith]

I was completely in the "BCD for buoyancy" camp until I started diving my Meg. Now, the only time I use my wing at all is on the surface. Any air at all in my wing underwater yanks my upper body straight up and down- pure vertical! And there's not a damn thing I can do to get back into trim until I vent all the air out.

[CaptnJack]

That's exciting for me to hear that Andrew teaches that way. That's the way I was trained (non-GUE) and I've always taught. So, to hear that he teaches it...well, that's cool, as I have huge respect for him.

For a time its been the (internet?) perception that in order to be "properly" using your suit you should run a -20ft squeeze on the damned thing. Aka decend from the surface to 20ft without adding any suit gas and then dive with that amount of squeeze throughout the dive. I'm pretty sure Andrew is just pushing back on that rediculous notion. Add gas to your suit, get comfortable, when very "heavy" for whatever reason use your wing for the remaining buoyancy managment.

If you are diving in potential upwellings - like Agate or Deception Passes you do want to run some suit squeeze. Its hard to vent fast enough otherwise.