NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

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Tangfish
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NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Tangfish »

Alright folks, I finally just read through the worst parts of this thread, and I have to say that I am pretty appalled and disappointed. Not specifically with anyone who participated, but disappointed at us as a group of divers, and as a community of like-minded people (we all really do have much, much more in common that not).

I ask that all of you who care about this site, or even don't like this site and wish it were different, will post your thoughts about Northwest Dive Club and its future, here on this thread. For the time being, I'm going to forget about whatever type of equipment I use, who I dive with and what school of thought I subscribe to. For the duration of this thread I hope you all will join me in considering yourselves above all else, simply divers.

We have had an increasing amount of tension building up over the past several months, in relation to differences in diving philosophy. Some of us (myself included) have posted snarky, snide comments while others have overtly stated criticisms and insults. This is not what this board is about and I am ashamed at playing a role, and at letting it escalate and deteriorate to this point. For that, I apologize to all members of Northwest Dive Club.

It is hard *not to* let these things get to you. We are taught from day one (whether that was Discover SCUBA or OW) that how we dive and the equipment we choose to dive with affects not only our safety but that of others around us. It is no wonder then, that as we learn more about diving, become better, dive deeper, longer and more complex profiles that the critical importance we place on diving skills and equipment and even philosophies continues to grow along with us. It is a natural tendency for branches that grow far from the trunk to eventually cross with other branches, that have also grown great distances. It is because of this great passion we have for diving, the camaraderie we have developed with our dive buddies that we take such great offense when someone else says something that we perceive as an affront to our safety and those we care about. It is a natural reaction, based on perceptions.

I have waffled many times over what to do about the problem that I have seen as membership grew and as people have become better divers (and as a result, more set in their ways). I'll admit, the thought has crossed my mind several times to outright ban all talk of DIR on this board. Regardless of where the blame lies, in the detractors' camp, in the DIR gospel preachers, the confused new people who ask questions, the factions within the DIR camp, CCR divers, etc. - the bottom line is that we all know that wherever DIR topics occur on the internet, bad things tend to follow. This is a reality, not my personal opinion. Many people have theorized about the reason for this, and have tried to remedy the situation. I am not so arrogant to think that I can solve this problem when others smarter and more experienced than me have tried and failed to do so. So far, I have not decided to prevent DIR discussions from taking place on a policy level - primarily because the greatest criticism of DIR diving is that it is not inclusive - and in excluding it here on the board, I would be carrying out exactly that which I wish to protect others from. That is not to say that I will never do it, mind you, but I consider it a real last resort.

This brings me to my next point. Passionate belief systems are not exclusive to diving, surprise! Another category of belief systems that have properties similar to our diving dogmas are *religions*. So, I will use the same reasoning I apply to religions and adapt it to diving philosophies on this board. I would like people here to understand that *anyone* and *everyone* is allowed and encouraged to subscribe to whatever school of thought they want to. Pick whatever suits you right. But, I'm preaching to the choir here. The people likely reading this thread will be those who have already chosen. The problem is not that I choose something different than Steding, who chooses something different than Bob, who chooses something different than Matt... the problem lies in the fact that we spend energy, sometimes great amounts of it, on trying to convince each other that one way is better than another. I'm not going to go back to grade school and tell you that all ways of diving are equal. They're not. But, I'm also not the person who gets to play judge and jury in the universe of objectivism, and neither are any of you.

So, where do these struggles on the board come from? Does Nailer just wake up one day and decide that it's time to take on the OC guys for an afternoon? No. It typically arises from one person telling other people about their own style of diving, because they think they're helping to inform others. Whether this is to inform a new diver who asked a question, or to clear up a perceived misconception about [insert type of diving here], that's where it always stems from. And, that's what happens in a large-ish open forum where everyone has the opportunity to speak.

Going back to religion. Some religions have the concept that in order to be a good [insert type of worshipper here], you need to convince other people to adopt your way of thinking, praying, etc. You need to spread the good word. You need to reduce confusion around God, because reducing confusion is good. This is called evangelism. I have no intention of speaking to what I think about religion here because I respect NWDC members' rights to believe what they want about their Gods and religions. However, dive philosophies are not religions, and therefore I can make the argument that we should ALL do as much as we can to stamp out the urge to be evangelical, and in turn defensive, about our ways of diving, our equipment configurations and our dive team practices. It's diving, for pete's sake. It's something we do *for fun* (most of us). So, why make it not-fun by trying to evangelize something that need not be evangelized? If you're reading or writing stuff on this board, you're already interested in diving. No one needs to encourage you down one path or another. The person seeking knowledge will acquire it one way or another. All that we do when we push and pull each other over dive philosophy and practices is make ourselves look stupid and childish.

Now, that was a long pep-talk. In summary and conclusion, my first resort is to apologize, to set down my own personal beliefs and to remember that I'm just a person who goes underwater, like all of you. Next, I need to let you all know that some things need to change around here. NWDC is home to several groups who have different agendas. Some groups even have their own web sites that promote or cater to particular types of diving (I'm not just talking about NWUE, I count rebreatherworld folk in this as well, etc.). To those of you who want to promote your beliefs and diving styles on the web, that's great, promote away.... but not here.

Consider this a reminder that this board was built for recreational divers seeking buddies to do recreational dives. It is not a farm system for divers to find mentors, gurus, role models, instructors, gear suppliers or anything else. Sure, someone might find one of these things - but that is not the primary purpose for this venue. So, to those of you who have intentionally or even inadvertently turned NWDC into a battleground for ideas or the attention or interest of new divers, please cease and desist because I ask you to, not because I am forced to make you.

Our moderators have continued to do the very hard job of keeping this a friendly environment for people. I fear that they are not into continuing the work that they receive little gratification and no compensation for. If these flame wars over diving philosophies continue and eventually drive out one of the Mods, I will be forced to do something other than appeal to our collective sensibilities, and I don't want to. I have always been a pretty hands-off guy around here and there has traditionally only been two cardinal rules:

1) Don't be a dick.
2) Have fun.

It seems that both rules were broken in the thread I referenced at the beginning. Apologies will be openly accepted on this thread and no one will think lesser of you if you want to lay down your jet black diver gear and show your fuzzy undergarments. I'll be the first to start. I'm sorry to the DIR folk who I :smt064 a few weeks back, and I'm sorry to all NWDC members for being negligent about the deterioration of the site that has occurred. Finally, I'm sorry to the Mods, for not supporting them as well as I could have and for being absent for days or weeks at a time, when the dive club has needed direction and resolve. I'm not to the last straw yet though, so I am committed to helping us all get along.

Phew....
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Tom Nic »

Calvin, you are da man! Well said.

I encourage anyone who has questions about what Calvin wrote to air those questions in this forum.

I hope that every member of this board takes the time to read your well thought out and written statement.

And last, but not least, if I have offended any in the process of any comments I have made, my apologies.

Respectfully,

Tom Nic
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Dmitchell »

Since I'm obviously the one who blew the thread over the top, I want to be the first "guilty party" to back off my soapbox and apologize to those I outright attacked.

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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by spatman »

tangfish wrote:I ask that all of you who care about this site, or even don't like this site and wish it were different, will post your thoughts about Northwest Dive Club and its future, here on this thread.
i'll admit it, i love this site. NWDC is a a very region specific resource that has helped shape me and many other new PNW divers. NWDC, even with its foibles,is a connection to a relatively small yet diverse community of divers that would be otherwise conspicuously absent. NWDC provides a means to share, joke, mentor and even argue about a sport that we all are fully committed to and enthralled by.

i even love it as it currently stands. NWDC may be a sometimes tumultuous place as of late, but as was pointed out, all "families" bicker, argue, and sometimes storm out of the house. but in the end we're all divers, and i'm willing to bet that 99% of the beef on this forums could be squashed over a cold beer and a few dives. (well, not necessarily in that order).

for that other 1% moving forward, hopefully it's live and let live, at the very least maintain a civil tone, or take the flare ups to email or PM.

i sincerely hope that NWDC has a long and healthy future, and if i can help promote or maintain that in any way, i will.
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Joshua Smith
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Joshua Smith »

Good to see you chime in here, Calvin. Great post. I would also like to apologize for my less-than diplomatic behavior in the offending thread- to the board in general, and to Doug Steding in particular.
That was the end result of over 2 years worth of not saying what I really think, swallowing my words, and biting my tongue. For as long as I've been diving, I've received criticism from different parts of the DIR camp, some subtle, some not so much. I'm probably a little thin-skinned about it by this point, but, yes, I have literally been told that where I had my SPG clipped off could kill me, and/ or my buddy. That said, many UTD divers are really great people whom I'm genuinely friendly with, if not friends.

Like I went out of my way to point out, twice, in the first thread- DIR/UTD is a perfectly valid training system, with an admirable safety record, yadda yadda. But why do I have to hear about how great it is all the time, on this site? I have taken some wonderful training through both TDI and IANTD, yet I don't feel compelled to write about it over and over again, after a simple class report.

I'm at a loss for words, trying to articulate what I want for this board, in the future. Quite a few people only log in here when they have something they want to promote, and I'm tired of that. I'm tired of stomping out DIR/ Anti-DIR brush fires. I'm tired of people who contribute nothing of substance to this board implying in private messages that I "play favorites" with "certain people," then backing down when I ask them what the heck they're talking about. I'm tired of the hysteria that ensues every time a diver loses their life in some tragic accident, with people railing against PADI from the rooftops.

I used to love logging in here, and reading all the great stuff my friends had posted. It's more of a chore, now- I still relish a juicy thread hijack, or exciting trip report, interesting discussion, etc. But lately, I've been sorta scanning the forums looking for smoke, and cringing when I see new PMs in my inbox.
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Tangfish »

Thanks you guys, for stepping it up a notch and offering the apologies. It takes more character to do that than to stay silent.

Josh, I guess today must be my day to pull communities out of death spirals. I know it's annoying when people say that they know how hard it must be, but I honestly do know. NWDC has 700 or so members, who are very passionate, and it's further complicated by the fact that we are talking about stuff that can harm or help real people on real dives. But, I have also been very embattled on *the other* online community I look after (made up of about 1.7 million members), and have been very downtrodden over putting out forest fires over there, which have also been on the rise. Here was my treatise to that group of people, written right after the one here.

Sometimes we have a bad spell, but hopefully those turn right back around into good times again. I remember being pretty distraught over diving when I formed this board. No more traveling and no dive buddies to speak of, just a bunch of glowing, bright tropical dive gear and no compass \:D/

It'll never be what it was, but it can be different, and better.... if we all stick together and remember that we're all divers here.
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Joshua Smith »

The Newsvine treatise was quite good- you have a silver tongue, my friend. (I'm sure it will go back to it's normal color eventually. Just quit licking that fake chrome handrail.) One critical piece of advice you offered up, I feel unable to take- that part about walking away. Although, I will be cutting back on the time I spend on the site starting next week....work is kicking up a notch, and I have no reasons or excuses to get online. I'll still check in at coffee break and lunch, though.
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by mattwave »

Cheers Calvin, well said, whew - let's go diving. :occasion5: :occasion5:
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Crystaltear »

I guess it's a bad time to ask whether I should get a Salvo or Halcyon light :p

Diving(and working) at edmonds this Sunday, anyone? :la:
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Dusty2
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Dusty2 »

I unfortunately started that thread by stirring a fire I wasn't aware of. I spend little time outside of the critter forum and have only been on this board a short time. Had I been aware of the ongoing battle of the factions that existed here I would never have even considered such a post. I feel very bad that something I said or did set off such a firestorm. All those who know me know that I go to great lengths to be one of the boys or should I say group and absolutely hate arguments and confrontations.

I moved to this board a short time ago when the other board I was on almost folded in part because the owner could no longer spare the massive amounts of time required to keep one of these things alive and well. It is a shame that some take their chosen slant on our sport so seriously. I am sure they have their reasons but such feuds only destroy and never create. Lets all just enjoy our sport as best we can and leave the controversy to other venues. This is a valuable resource for us all new or old and a way we can contribute to our sport.

I have very great respect for you mods and know for sure how important your job is and how much you put into it.
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Joshua Smith
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Joshua Smith »

Crystaltear wrote:I guess it's a bad time to ask whether I should get a Salvo or Halcyon light :p

Diving(and working) at edmonds this Sunday, anyone? :la:
I prefer Salvo- I own 2 of them, and they have never let me down!
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Joshua Smith »

Dusty2 wrote:I unfortunately started that thread by stirring a fire I wasn't aware of. I spend little time outside of the critter forum and have only been on this board a short time. Had I been aware of the ongoing battle of the factions that existed here I would never have even considered such a post. I feel very bad that something I said or did set off such a firestorm. All those who know me know that I go to great lengths to be one of the boys or should I say group and absolutely hate arguments and confrontations.

I moved to this board a short time ago when the other board I was on almost folded in part because the owner could no longer spare the massive amounts of time required to keep one of these things alive and well. It is a shame that some take their chosen slant on our sport so seriously. I am sure they have their reasons but such feuds only destroy and never create. Lets all just enjoy our sport as best we can and leave the controversy to other venues. This is a valuable resource for us all new or old and a way we can contribute to our sport.

I have very great respect for you mods and know for sure how important your job is and how much you put into it.
Dusty, we're happy to have you here, man.
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by dsteding »

Okay, my two cents here.

First, I think it is relatively okay to debate styles, philosophies, approaches, etc, as long as it is done with a civil tone. Josh, I've never had a problem with the way we've debated each other on this board, and I've always tried to check myself before making a post. Obviously, posts like Dave Mitchell's in that last thread are over the line, and they are so over the line I'd prefer they stay up. Those types of things speak for themselves, and if someone wants to make themselves look that way, fine by me.

Calvin, re the "evangelizing" by people in my camp: This is something I've been aware of for a while, and something we as a group have been trying to temper among ourselves on an active basis. In fact, this is something I posted to the NWUE list after we went through a bit of drama a few weeks back:
No real big drama this week. Just wanted to remind people of a few
things, in my constant attempt to make sure we steer clear of drama,
and we present ourselves well to the world (mostly through the
internet).

Please, think twice before posting on boards. If it is something that
(a) you have no training in or (b) is something you aren't sure about,
maybe it is a good idea not to post. Part of the critique of DIR
divers on the internet is the fundies-trained diver spouting off about
all things DIR. If you've taken fundies/essentials/intro to tech,
answer questions about that. If T1/T2/C1/C2 then obviously the ground
you can cover is more. The most thoughtful posts are those that share
personal knowledge or experience, no need to thump our chests or puff
ourselves up.

****

We need to project a knowledgeable, thoughtful, courteous community,
and the above will go a long way to ensure that. Locally, if people
start to turn to us more and more for thoughts/education on DIR, we
really should make sure we are qualified to answer, and if not, toss
it to the list for a head's up. Obviously, we have some very
experienced divers here (including a GUE instructor) who may be able
to take a crack at things.

****
Bottom line, the tides have been turning as we've been actively working to change our own image. I'm speaking in particular of the private forum on this board, and how things have turned to people ducking in and out of that forum and taking snipes at others. I'd rather come off as evangelizing or even elitist than be stuck in that rut of being a fifth grader on a school playground.

One may question why I even care about all this:

Here is my reality. I patronize a non-DIR/UTD shop, and would like to continue to maintain a good relationship with those guys. Matt has a huge heart, and has more than once gone out of his way to help me out, and Dan is, flat-out, the nicest dude and also hugely accommodating to his customers. At the same time, I dive with guys like Richard, who's been hugely generous in mentoring me, and people like Lynne, who is probably the most enthusiastic and pin-headed about diving as anyone else on this board. Buddies like those that I went through tech 1 are invaluable, and swirling around all of this are some really great people, DIR/UTD or not. I still love rolling through the Cove 2 parking lot and chatting people up-and I'm honestly sincere when I express happiness in seeing you, regardless of how you dive.

In short, I care because of the community. Hell, the only reason I even patronize this board is because I care about the community, but the reality is that the spirit and enthusiasm for diving that used to be on this board (in all its goofy glory) has waned. Maybe some of that is my fault, but before we assign all the blame to the UTD/DIR gang, let's not lose sight of the fact it has taken two to tango.

All that being said, I think it is time for a gut check all around, and that is what I was trying to get at back in "that thread." The purpose of this post, I suppose, is to give all of you on this board a bit more visibility on what we've been up to, and that we've been actively thinking and addressing this issue.

I'd ask that others do the same, and while I do believe Calvin's post is a good start, what it mostly does is point out stuff I'm already aware of as issues. Calvin, we hear you, we are working on the evangelical behavior, as you put it. The fact is the events of the past few days have driven away the people that post was pointed at, myself included.

At the end of the day, remember that all of our actions are being watched and judged. Sure I'm opinionated, sure I'm passionate about the way I dive, but I think if you look back through my posts you'd be hard pressed to find any personal attacks or me intentionally baiting those on the "other side."

If this board is to reformulate itself into what it used to be, those of you that are taking things to a personal level need to stop before you press post. Personal attacks followed by reconciliatory posts later on only go so far. Sniping at others and then apologizing also only goes so far.

I'm not sure where all that leaves me, but Calvin's request not to be silent lead to this post. Just food for thought right now, there are two sides to everything, sometimes even more.
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by scottsax »

I love this site.

I've learned an incredible amount about diving from lurking, more from asking questions, and even more still by DIVING with the amazingly kind and generous friends I've made here. I took a few minutes and scanned through my old posts, and I realized just how much I've learned and developed not only as a diver, but as a person. Since getting certified 2 years ago, diving has become my path out of the darkest time of life. Those that I dive with regularly know what I'm talking about. My dive buddies, and by extension this site, have helped me become a stronger, smarter, and safer diver and human being.

Thank you, Calvin, for creating this site, and thank you to all the mods for making sure crap doesn't get too far out of hand here. The bottom line, I think, for most of us, is that we LOVE to dive, and want to be safe when doing it. Let's face it-it's cold and dark and fresh air is a long way away here in the PNW. Dive long, dive hard, but most of all, dive safe-whatever that means to you.

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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by airsix »

I am dead nuts honest when I say that this club is the most important Internet resource I have (outside of my professional life). In 24 hours I'll be hundreds of miles from home, but I'll be in the company of some of the greatest people I know, and it's because of this website. I don't know what more to say than that. What could be greater than something that literally serves up good company on demand? This place rocks, and it will take a whole lot more than an occasional quarrel to overshadow all the positives. Thanks to everyone for making this place what it is. Now I have to go because I see Jan has posted something in his Whidbey Island Critters thread and I want to go check it out. That thread is like my favorite TV show. :bounce:

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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Burntchef »

i think david lee roth said it best " WHERE HAVE ALL THE GOOD TIMES GONE??"

i owe a lot to this board, me and my girlfriend did our o.w. at uws like most everyone else and i was totally fanatically hooked, she liked it but wasnt bonkers about it. i started to do some google searches and wound up here, then was able to hook up with nailer, ken, bj, and calvin for the standard wed cove 2 dive. after a few months i did my aow with bob and had doug( steding) and marc ( blitz)help out, it was very cool to see some guys so relaxed in the water and had something to strive for. me and josh started to dive more and more and became friends. well cycle thru almost 2 years later and i have made some great friends here. ken and i did our phase1 together and dive at least once a week somewhere. all of them have been to my new house for some bbq and beer swilling and sometimes to watch deep sea detectives shows and yell at chatterton about his trim!!

on my last deco dive i was passing by the time wondering what i would be doing right now if i had not hooked up with these guys here?? ( still have money thats for sure) maybe still working on my 62 t-bird( sold) climbing mt. adams for turns( maybe) but would of missed out on some great people and even better times.


so a big thanks to all who have helped keep this site running.

i propose we do our best to go back to the wed night cove2 dive where all are welcome to join, dive, laugh, prod each other. i would love to expand my buddy list and be able to put faces to avatars.
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Dmitchell »

Doug,
In the past couple days, you snipped me in one thread "bladdity blah" then you brutally attack the way that I dive. Rebreather divers are aware of the potential dangers of diving a rebreather just like OC tech divers are aware of what they face on a dive. We don't need to OC folks constantly telling us we're going to die. You want Rec divers telling you that you're going to die?

I've admitted that I went to far and I've apologized, I don't expect you to be my buddy (in or out of the water) anytime soon but I also don't expect to be attacked again in a thread where I've apologized.

I hang on this board because there is good knowledge and we all collectively tend to help out the new folks so they can learn. I can't dive with you guys much because I'm 1,000 miles away but we face similar dive conditions and environment so it's all good. I've met some really nice folks personally from this board and hope to meet and dive with more in the future. We have a ton of knowledge on this board and regardless of methodology or gear configuration, we all have the same goal which is to be doing what we enjoy.

Honestly, I have 4 complete sets of gear and all 4 get used frequently, I prefer the rebreather, but logistics don't always allow me to use it. In that case, I switch to my double or singles (or my pool gear) depending on the mission. On OC, I generally do dive a DIRish setup, it's the right tool for the job.

So to everyone who took offense to my post in the other thread (Doug included) I apologize again.

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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by LCF »

You know, I refer people here all the time, because on the other boards I frequent, I often get contacted by divers coming in from out of town who want to know if I can dive with them. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't; but when I can't give them the amount of diving they want, this is the place I send them. I'm not worried about whether they hook up with Doug or Josh or Calvin or dmitchell . . . I don't send them here to get a DIR buddy, or a buddy of any particular religion. What I tell them is that I send them here because this board is composed of avid local divers, and if you post here looking for a buddy, you're highly likely to find one. Because the bottom line is that all the frequent posters on this board are also frequent divers, and they run the gamut from beginners to folks like Dan Warter, who are doing all the dives that anybody could consider doing.

I find it incredibly sad that our different choices are so divisive. Everybody has to figure out how he wants to dive -- Everybody has to do some risk mitigation, and make some decisions about this or that. Given time and enough diving, I think we all find a style that suits us. I was lucky, and found mine early. I love the way I dive, and I'm delighted to show anybody what I do and explain why. There are some things I think are important for ALL of us, regardless of rebreathers or long hoses or jacket BCs -- I think we all need to be able to leave a dive site the way we found it, and we all need to know enough about what we are doing to stay safe, and if we choose to dive with buddies, we need the skills to be good buddies. Would anybody argue with that?

I put myself out there for new divers, to help them learn the skills they need to join this big community of folks as a safe, reliable diver respecting the environment through which we pass. From diving with me, they may go on to many different avenues, but hopefully, I will pass along the basic messages that what you do underwater matters, and that avoiding complacency and staying careful pays off in the long run.

I hope nobody on this board feels that I have ever been dismissive or derogatory about the way they dive. It is a big ocean, and there is room for all of us in it. I hope everybody here gets the same joy out of diving, and out of their diving companions, that I have been fortunate enough to have.
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Grateful Diver
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Grateful Diver »

I find it ironic that the controversy was over a thread that started out as a joke (OK, an old tired one, but still just a joke) ... and was inflamed by an open invitation to dive with the group of people the joke was targeting ... who are making an honest attempt to get beyond the stereotypes and be more inclusive.

That just doesn't seem like the sort of thing we should be arguing about.

In fact, diving together seems like a pretty neat idea ... can there be any better way to get over these apprehensions and develop friendships than to share the one passion we all have in common?

Let's just go diving ... and afterward we can talk about our differences over a pitcher of beer and a heap'n plate of nachos. Betchya the conversation would be a lot more friendly that way ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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dsteding
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by dsteding »

Dmitchell wrote:Doug,
In the past couple days, you snipped me in one thread "bladdity blah" then you brutally attack the way that I dive.
Dave, if that was this thread:

http://www.nwdiveclub.com/viewtopic.php ... a&start=30

I was saying "bladdity blah" to the fact that things were getting off topic, not snipping at you. We were wandering into a discussion of different dive philosophies and approaches instead of staying on topic (dive sites in the 140-170 foot range). Surely not trying to snip at you, and I didn't even notice that was in response to your post until I went back to it.
Dmitchell wrote:Rebreather divers are aware of the potential dangers of diving a rebreather just like OC tech divers are aware of what they face on a dive. We don't need to OC folks constantly telling us we're going to die. You want Rec divers telling you that you're going to die?
I know. And, I've never said to any rebreather diver on this board that they are gonna die. In fact, all of my posts about not diving mixed teams have been in response to a question about why I don't dive that way. Review page 4 of the disaster thread for some context there. I think there is a real difference between spouting off that someone is going to die (reminiscent of GI3 and his dribble) and responding to a question about why I don't do something. I've tried to remained reasoned and avoid personal attacks when doing so. I'm sorry if that comes across as me brutally attacking rebreathers, as I've said many times, I don't have ANYTHING against them, I have friends I respect that dive them (including Matt, Dan, and Josh), I just am not comfortable as having them as part of a mixed team.
Dmitchell wrote:I've admitted that I went to far and I've apologized, I don't expect you to be my buddy (in or out of the water) anytime soon but I also don't expect to be attacked again in a thread where I've apologized.
Thanks for apologizing, I should have acknowledged that earlier. My bad.

One last point:

I think what is going on here is that people's past experiences with DIR has colored the way they read certain posts by certain people. In fact, that was what I was basically trying to get at in my early rant in the disaster thread. I'd just ask that, in particular those of you that were around in the GI3 days, you try and abandoned that baggage when interacting with the new generation of UTD divers.

I've read his crap that he posted all over the internet. I understand how someone could take offense, and don't blame someone for doing so. Those posts are bad legacies we are still dealing with. I've also read the "take fundies" and the "buy a backplate" threads all over SB, and understand how those threads could get old to someone like Calvin or Josh.

In short, I am hearing you guys. And, as I tried to state above, I am working hard to make sure those things change, that we move towards a kinder, gentler, more sensitive UTD community that plays well in the sandbox.

So, please, keep that in the back of your mind when you are reading my posts. Don't automatically think I'm trying to be a dick, or that I am trying to cause rifts here, because that is the last thing I want to do.

Dave, we've locked horns, but I think it is cool you are involved here, and that you share your experiences as the extreme northern outpost of the PNW dive community.

Everyone else, I think Lynne and Bob said it best, we all share a passion for diving, so let's go do that.

-Doug

Last point: Dusty, sorry you were the one to spark this all off with your post. I understand that you didn't know what the context was. Obviously, you touched on a sensitive subject, but I want to acknowledge I likewise have nothing personal against you. Let's dive sometime, beers on me afterwards.
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To clarify.........

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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by mattwave »

Wow take a month or two off from the forums and look what happens, all hell breaks loose.

One of the gems we experience diving is camaraderie, and I think it's good time to cherish that gem. Most parties involved in these heated debates lose site of that wonderful part of the diver's life that we all share. Without pointing fingers I will say I can see some serious inconsideration to other's feeling and opinions to these topics, and when each individual reads this statement they can reflect that it may pertain to them, or it does not. Either way it's not a healthy way to show camaraderie, and in an activity such as diving with huge risks, personal feeling can fester lack of concentration and a compromise to safety.

Let's face it we owe it to each other to support one and another's choice to dive the way they dive, that's not happening here, it's not. Just because statistics may prove your opinion or contradict, doesn't mean it's worth making someone feel inferior to be underwater. WE ARE ALL INFERIOR AND WE DON"T BELONG UNDERWATER!! That being said let's appreciate that we survive each dive with enjoyment and camaraderie, and if we should despise anything it should be those damn Mammals that do belong.

I am a friend to most people on the board, others I just haven't met, but it seems like there is a line getting drawn in the sand between them, and I for one decided to walk away from the board to remain neutral, but let's face the facts - the line drawing should stop or just not draw it here, forums should be a place for camaraderie, and support for all fellow divers, your opinions and the way you dive means nothing to the Ocean and it will swallow anyone up the same, if it happens to any of us I hope there is no one is left with the remorse that maybe they should have been less opinionated to that diver and instead supported them when they needed it the most.

I will end with the disclaimer that I have fallen into such a trap myself, and I hope to never return. I will dive with anyone, heck I dive with people that have never put a mask on their face every month when I teach them how to dive - I hope you all would too.
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by CaptnJack »

Grateful Diver wrote:I find it ironic that the controversy ...... was inflamed by an open invitation to dive with the group of people the joke was targeting ... who are making an honest attempt to get beyond the stereotypes and be more inclusive.
I'm glad you see NWUEbuddy dives, getting people in the water together, at face value instead of some sort of evangelical mission. Thanks. Diving is the glue that holds the PNW diving 'community' together, not the internet. More diving, less bickering.
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Pez7378 »

tangfish wrote:I ask that all of you who care about this site, or even don't like this site and wish it were different, will post your thoughts about Northwest Dive Club and its future, here on this thread.
I care about this site. More importantly, I care about the people that I have met on this site, and many who I have yet to meet. There aren't many things I don't like about the site, and few things I wish were different. This community, as with those we meet in life, come from different backgrounds, and it's important that we respect that and respect each other.

This whole issue I call "Dive Politics" makes me sick. I see people that I look up to and respect bickering amongst themselves about trivial issues, and refusing to talk to one another. Usually it dissipates over time, and it's not uncommon for people to have disagreements only to resolve them at a later date, but why should it come to that in the first place?

We do this for FUN. We frequent this forum to learn about the things they didn't teach us in open water, to find dive buddies, meet new people, and to stay connected. We use it to get our daily "fix" of all things related to Diving and to live vicariously through the explorations, experiences and adventures of others. It truly is "A place for Northwest Divers to Meet and Organize" and we do that successfully on a regular basis.

Most of us have a solid group of people we could count on to go diving at a moments notice. We don't have to be here looking for buddies. We're here because we want to be, because we know there is much to learn from each other and because we enjoy picking on Joe.

I understand that I can learn a lot by diving with a variety of people regardless of experience or equipment configuration. Diving is about learning, and there is nobody that will ever know it all. Open your minds, and you will see that in the end, we are all the same. We are all putting ourselves in an environment we were not designed to be in, and we are all relying on ourselves, our equipment, and our "team" to get us back safely.
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by Dusty2 »

dsteding wrote: Last point: Dusty, sorry you were the one to spark this all off with your post. I understand that you didn't know what the context was. Obviously, you touched on a sensitive subject, but I want to acknowledge I likewise have nothing personal against you. Let's dive sometime, beers on me afterwards.
Thanks for the olive branch Doug, Cheerfully accepted :supz: and the same goes for anyone else here. Hope to meet you all some day at a local dive site.
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Re: NWDC Open Forum - Why We Visit This Site

Post by scottsax »

Pez7378 wrote:We're here because we want to be, because we know there is much to learn from each other and because we enjoy picking on Joe.
See, right there was an opportunity for you to be nice to him, and you passed it up... :bootyshake:
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