Cookies vs. arrows?

[Peter Guy]

A couple of questions:

a. Is there any "DIR/UTD" cave protocol other than GUE's?

b. Will a DIR/UTD trained caver please explain the rationale for NOT putting a cookie on your exit side of all the "contrary" permanent line arrows that you swim over? Fred D. told me it is his procedure to put a cookie on the first "contrary" arrow he comes across but no others.

[boydski]

(why would anybody want to take a distance marker out of a cave?)

Hi Lynne,

I'm just guessing, but I can think of a couple of likely reasons:

1. Politics. Danny most likely didn't check with the other agencies in QRSS before modifying the line markers. If he had checked, they most likely would mentioned item number 2.

2. The line marking convention in Mexico has generally been to only place permanent line arrows on the main lines at Tees or to mark the jumps to other lines. Adding additional markers without broadly communicating the changes to the Cave Diving community can mess up stick maps and navigation (i.e. you plan a jump at the 4th arrow down the main line which is now a distance marker with no side lines around).

[CaptnJack]

Danny said he spent about three months putting in distance markers in some caves, and within a few weeks, they were all missing (why would anybody want to take a distance marker out of a cave?)

Because Danny and Steve G. have been having a pissing match for a decade+

b. Will a DIR/UTD trained caver please explain the rationale for NOT putting a cookie on your exit side of all the "contrary" permanent line arrows that you swim over? Fred D. told me it is his procedure to put a cookie on the first "contrary" arrow he comes across but no others.

You mark the exit side of anything you wish. Do not place cookies in the middle of things like << or < >> even when they are widely spaced and/or have ties-off in the middle. That will screw you up royally. A disk of plastic which has no directionality of its own, only means something in relationship to other items. Where there are multiple other items it can get confusing real fast unless your cookie is on the exit side of all of them. This may in certain circumstances lead to the cookie being a good distance away.

You can save yourself alot of head scratching by thinking of this marking your exit side in the affirmative. Mark the exit side. That's all you need to remember.

1. Politics. Danny most likely didn't check with the other agencies in QRSS before modifying the line markers. If he had checked, they most likely would mentioned item number 2.

2. The line marking convention in Mexico has generally been to only place permanent line arrows on the main lines at Tees or to mark the jumps to other lines. Adding additional markers without broadly communicating the changes to the Cave Diving community can mess up stick maps and navigation (i.e. you plan a jump at the 4th arrow down the main line which is now a distance marker with no side lines around).

Danny is on the QRSS. Gerrard is not and he routinely f-cks with QRSS agreed upon changes in lines and markers. He also steals select other divers markers while they are actually in the cave in the name of "clean up". And replaces original first exploration markers with his own (the orange Aquatec ones) as he sees fit. He does not get along with any of the QRSS members/agencies. Danny is really on Steve G's s-it list because Danny was his student years ago.

[airsix]

You can save yourself alot of head scratching by thinking of this [as] marking your exit side in the affirmative. Mark the exit side. That's all you need to remember.

To a non-caver this makes a lot of sense.

Danny is on the QRSS. Gerrard is not and he routinely f-cks with QRSS agreed upon changes in lines and markers. He also steals select other divers markers while they are actually in the cave in the name of "clean up".

Again, I'm a non-caver, but that sounds frighteningly reckless and while I try to be a civilized and diplomatic individual, those actions are worthy of a good parkinglot beating for the first offense, and broken limbs for a repeat offense. If you disagree with someone's marking methods, take it up with them when they are safely out of the cave. If a person is actually doing as you say they should be charged with reckless endangerment at the very least.

-Ben

[CaptnJack]

Danny is on the QRSS. Gerrard is not and he routinely f-cks with QRSS agreed upon changes in lines and markers. He also steals select other divers markers while they are actually in the cave in the name of "clean up".

Again, I'm a non-caver, but that sounds frighteningly reckless and while I try to be a civilized and diplomatic individual, those actions are worthy of a good parkinglot beating for the first offense, and broken limbs for a repeat offense. If you disagree with someone's marking methods, take it up with them when they are safely out of the cave. If a person is actually doing as you say they should be charged with reckless endangerment at the very least.

Welcome to the world of technical diving, where sketchy lunatics abound.

[Peter Guy]

You mark the exit side of anything you wish. Do not place cookies in the middle of things like << or < >> even when they are widely spaced and/or have ties-off in the middle.

Richard, I'll admit to being a bit confused. Here's a scenario I found with Fred and Lynne:

We are on the mainline and heading away from our entry point heading towards another Cenote (some distance away). After a few minutes we come upon an arrow pointing away from our entry (exit) point and towards that other Cenote -- we drop cookies on our "exit" side of the arrow (in my vocabulary, "negating" the arrow). We go along for a few more minutes -- another arrow pointing towards the other Cenote; a few more minutes yet another arrow pointing towards the other Cenote. This was repeated several times. (OK, in fact, after the 3rd or 4th arrow there was an arrow pointing TOWARDS our exit but that's another story.)

Here were arrows that were spaced some distance apart and NOT pointing to our exit. "Negate" only the first and just assume all subsequent arrows point away from your exit?

[CaptnJack]

STOP talking about negating things. Wipe that from your mind. The lone arrow pointing into the cave is the stupid simple scenario. When you have a >> pointing into the cave how do you mark that? What about when its <----X---->-----> with a 90deg turn and a jump at the X? All of a sudden you are placing cookies and their meaning can vary dramatically based on how close they might be to something, not just their position.

Think logically like a database, or ehem a lawyer. Do you want a round disk of plastic to have conditional meanings depending on what its next to or how many inches it is from the thing? Hell no.

Cookies mark the exit side of things. It does not matter which direction the thing you are marking points, or even if it points anywhere at all. e.g. an unmarked T has no directionality. In a cenote called Kim Ha you will find all sorts of bizarre pseudo rounded arrows. You mark the exit side of those regardless of which way they might be pointiest. (They are original homemade arrows)

If you want to mark your exit side of every arrow pointing into the cave that's your perogative. You can also mark the exit side of Ts, jumps, or even arrows "correctly" pointing back towards your exit if you so choose.

[Sockmonkey]

[Pez7378]

<<<<<<Sockmonkey<<OO>>Pez7378>>>>>>

[dsteding]

No popcorn needed around here . . . Richard and Peter will be civil.

I promise.

Gentleman, proceed with pin-headed discussion.

[LCF]

Richard, I think you are trying to get across something profound, and both Peter and I aren't getting it.

If I'm swimming into the cave, and all the arrows I pass are pointing back to my entrance, I'm not going to put down any markers. I'm happy; the markings in the cave confirm my exit, and if I get turned around and confused, and get to an arrow, it will send me home.

If, on the other hand, I get to a point in the cave where the arrows are pointing AWAY from my exit, then if I get disoriented or off the line and find one of those arrows, they are going to send me in the WRONG direction. I was taught to mark those arrows with a cookie on my exit side. Even Fred confirmed that one should mark the FIRST such arrow; what seems to differ is whether one marks all such arrows that are encountered, or just the first one, or the first one or two. German marks them all. Danny didn't specify. Fred marks the first one. What do YOU do?

[CaptnJack]

Ok ok. Think of it like a Ven diagram...
A) You can negate a "contrary arrow" arrow and effectively NOT mark the exit side of anything
or
B) You can always mark the exit side of something but not necessarily negate a "contrary arrow"

The previous example of NOT placing a cookie inside this triple arrow pseudo midpoint + jump...
--<-->->--

Stuff like this
--<-O-O->->--
or this
--<-O-O->->-O-O-
effectively "negates arrows" but is gibberish as far as marking an exit.

So you would mark this like so
-O-O--<-->->-- (left exit, 2 "non-negated" arrows remain)
or
--<-->->-O-O- (right exit, one "non-negated" arrow remains)


Here's another midpoint example, the negating logic would go like so...
----<--O--O------>---- exit right
vs.
exit left ----<------O--O-->----
You can see with these 2 situations that the actual relationship between the "negated arrow" and the "good arrow" is not clear. The cookies are in the same orientation relative to the good arrow as they are to the bad arrow. Just a couple of inches creates the "decision". That's bad news. The cookie should define, by its relative position, the exit side. Distance to the arrow is irrelevant. However by attempting to "negate a contrary arrow" you have created a situation where out-of-the-cave and into-the-cave are now defined by a couple of inches difference between the cookies and one arrow vs another arrow. Are you going to break out a ruler in the dark to decide which is which? Ummm no.

So the correct way to mark a midpoint is like this.
----<---------->-O-O--
Which leaves a "contrary arrow" unmarked, big whoop.

The concept that you mark "contrary arrows" is from Cave1. Once you start doing jumps, circuits and traverses you MUST adopt the logic that you are marking the exit side of an arrow, the junction, group of arrows, etc. The "negating" logic will get you in trouble because it may very well "negate" an arrow pointing the wrong way, but in a peculiar twist also not tell you which way is out.

[CaptnJack]

Oh and to answer your direct question, I mark the exit side of the first arrow we come to pointing into the cave. If I can't remember by the 2nd arrow that I'm in a section of cave with arrows pointing away from my exit its time to thumb it.

[Pez7378]

Ok ok. Think of it like a Ven diagram...
A) You can negate a "contrary arrow" arrow and effectively NOT mark the exit side of anything
or
B) You can always mark the exit side of something but not necessarily negate a "contrary arrow"

The previous example of NOT placing a cookie inside this triple arrow pseudo midpoint + jump...
--<-->->--

Stuff like this
--<-O-O->->--
or this
--<-O-O->->-O-O-
effectively "negates arrows" but is gibberish as far as marking an exit.

So you would mark this like so
-O-O--<-->->-- (left exit, 2 "non-negated" arrows remain)
or
--<-->->-O-O- (right exit, one "non-negated" arrow remains)


Here's another midpoint example, the negating logic would go like so...
----<--O--O------>---- exit right
vs.
exit left ----<------O--O-->----
You can see with these 2 situations that the actual relationship between the "negated arrow" and the "good arrow" is not clear. The cookies are in the same orientation relative to the good arrow as they are to the bad arrow. Just a couple of inches creates the "decision". That's bad news. The cookie should define, by its relative position, the exit side. Distance to the arrow is irrelevant. However by attempting to "negate a contrary arrow" you have created a situation where out-of-the-cave and into-the-cave are now defined by a couple of inches difference between the cookies and one arrow vs another arrow. Are you going to break out a ruler in the dark to decide which is which? Ummm no.

So the correct way to mark a midpoint is like this.
----<---------->-O-O--
Which leaves a "contrary arrow" unmarked, big whoop.

The concept that you mark "contrary arrows" is from Cave1. Once you start doing jumps, circuits and traverses you MUST adopt the logic that you are marking the exit side of an arrow, the junction, group of arrows, etc. The "negating" logic will get you in trouble because it may very well "negate" an arrow pointing the wrong way, but in a peculiar twist also not tell you which way is out.

I don't know what a Ven Diagram is, but this explanation makes perfect sense to me.

[cardiver]

In mathematics, a diagram representing a set or sets and the logical relationships between them. The sets are drawn as circles. An area of overlap between two circles (sets) contains elements that are common to both sets, and thus represents a third set. Circles that do not overlap represent sets with no elements in common (disjoint sets). The method is named after the English logician John Venn.

[LCF]

Thanks, Richard. The difficulty was coming from the fact that you were focusing on more complicated groups of markers, and we were only thinking about single arrows.

I agree with you about how many to mark. It's hard to imagine getting off the line and not finding it until you have swum far enough to be back in the section of the cave where the arrows are pointing to your exit again.

[BASSMAN]

In mathematics, a diagram representing a set or sets and the logical relationships between them. The sets are drawn as circles. An area of overlap between two circles (sets) contains elements that are common to both sets, and thus represents a third set. Circles that do not overlap represent sets with no elements in common (disjoint sets). The method is named after the English logician John Venn.

I don't know about all that, but the digrams do seem to make sense. And then I get all twisted about and loose my focus. It must be some sort of ADD thing for me. But this has been an extremly interesting thread.

Thanks!

[boydski]

This has been a very interesting and educational thread.

One of the non-dir methods for some of the issues that Richard has brought up (different Strokes for different folks if you will ) is to use a different type of non-directional marker instead of a cookie. These markers (made by Bill Phillips and customized/numbered for each individual) are non-directional for everyone but the owner of the maker.

Here is an example of one of my non-directional markers:



I was curious if Richard, Lynne or Peter had come across one of these yet?

[Zen Diver]

Now THAT I like Scott. Where did you find it? Or did you make it yourself?

-Valerie

[LCF]

No, I haven't seen one of those (although I dove with several classes Bill was running when I was down there in November).

The idea of customizing a non-directional marker to make it directional for the owner is one I've run into before -- notching or drilling the marker so that it's both identifiable and directional, even when blind.

[vbcoachchris]

It's called a "REM" Adam and Ela from Cave Heaven showed them to me last summer. I forget what the R stood for. something Exit Marker.

Scott

[boydski]

Now THAT I like Scott. Where did you find it? Or did you make it yourself?

-Valerie

Hi Valerie,

We get them from Bill Phillips down in Mexico. He's one of the original explorers for many of the cave systems down there (you'll see his name on a lot of cave maps) and he lives in Chemeyil (which I'm no doubt misspelling). He actually customizes the markers individually for his clients and keeps track of the patterns so you can order more if you need them.

[boydski]

It's called a "REM" Adam and Ela from Cave Heaven showed them to me last summer. I forget what the R stood for. something Exit Marker.

Scott

Thanks Scott! I've heard them called a "REM" before as well, but didn't know what it stood for either. Google says its a "Referencing Exit Marker". Very Cool!

From the Cave Heaven Blog:

PERSONAL MARKERS

For training, 4 markers are required - 2 directional markers (line arrows) and 2 non-directional markers (REMs or cookies). Referencing exit markers (REM) may be used in place of cookies and are encouraged for cave divers. Most caves in the Riviera Maya have no system distance markers and any system arrows may be limited to marking jumps. You may want to bring more directional markers than usual, should you want to reinforce your exit direction from time to time.

[CaptnJack]

The idea of customizing a non-directional marker to make it directional for the owner is one I've run into before -- notching or drilling the marker so that it's both identifiable and directional, even when blind.

I did that at one time. And discarded the idea, since I put cookies on with a "twist" I was sporadically installing the "exit mark" the wrong way. After thinking about it for awhile, I decided this was like having 2 watches. So mine all have distinctive notches as "mine" but I no longer attempt to indicate direction with them. I figure if I'm so far in and permanent arrows are too sparse for me that's a hint that I need to retreat and do more dives in the system. I talked about "directional cookies" with Danny in class (noted that his are not notched at all) and decided this works for me.

[Sounder]

Richard - from a purely curious standpoint, I have to ask the question of "why not?" Why not have your cookies also have a direction? I only see an advantage. More info during a blind exit seems like it'd be "exciting!" More info as to the direction of exit in a blind situation seems like "good news!"

In Intro (which I realize is a very basic, non-overhead, class), we've established there is ALWAYS a "why" behind everything we do. So why would Danny say to have non-directional-specific cookies when you COULD have direction without compromising anything... or, why would having a (personally-understood) directional cookie pointing toward the exit be a problem? I guess my question is "why not?!"

(Sounder continues to sit quietly, folks his hands, place them in his lap, and listen respectfully)