Cookies vs. arrows?

[scottsax]

Thought I'd post this in here, and not clutter the cave line clean-up thread.

As asked earlier, what's the difference, and why is the DIR/UTD school of thought to use cookies rather than arrows?

Disclaimer: I know nothing about cave diving, although it intrigues me. I'm also not a formally trained DIR/UTD diver, although I am DIR-curious.

[Sounder]

Cookies are best with milk. This concludes my knowledge of cookies and arrows.

Great thread!! (Sounder sits down and listens carefully while enjoying cookies and milk)

[BDub]

In the simplest possible terms, you want to reinforce your own exit and you don't want to disrupt the general navigation of the cave. Cookies are non-directional markers. Arrows are directional markers. By dropping cookies, you won't change the general navigation of the cave. Dropping an arrow can change the general navigation of the cave, if you drop it in the opposite direction of the cave navigation.

If the permanent arrows are all pointing this way ----------> ----> ------>---->, but you drop an arrow here, facing this way <------------- you've just changed the general navigation of the cave and can create confusion for other teams in the cave. You can still reinforce, confirm, cancel (whatever terms you want to give it), with a cookie, which is non-directional.

Some prefer to use an arrow to mark their navigation, instead of cookies.

Clear as mud?

[scottsax]

So when diving as a team, does one diver place cookies on the line that the rest of the team then uses as their navigational reference?

In some of the cave diving literature I've read, it's was indicated that arrows should point toward the nearest exit, and cookies indicated which divers were in the cave...

[BDub]

So when diving as a team, does one diver place cookies on the line that the rest of the team then uses as their navigational reference?

In some of the cave diving literature I've read, it's was indicated that arrows should point toward the nearest exit, and cookies indicated which divers were in the cave...

Cookies are dropped by each diver. Think of it this way....you drop a cookie for your entire team, and somehow you and your buddy get separated. You recalculate your turn and search for your buddy. You hit your turn pressure and exit, passing the cookie on the way out. Is your buddy out of the cave or in the cave? You don't know.

If you each dropped a cookie, and you search for your buddy, come back to and see only your cookie, then you know your buddy has exited, because he picked up his cookie on his exit. So it not only reinforces navigation, it marks your "presence" as well.

[scottsax]

And the assumption is that arrows in a cave are laid correctly? Or if they're there when you arrive, you just disregard them and drop cookies to mark your own path and presence?

[BDub]

And the assumption is that arrows in a cave are laid correctly? Or if they're there when you arrive, you just disregard them and drop cookies to mark your own path and presence?

No assumptions...it's your responsibility to know what the permanent arrows are doing in relation to what you're doing. You're using your cookies to reinforce what you're doing against what the arrows are doing, so to speak.

[CaptnJack]

Neither are used in OW.

Cookies are used to reinforce your exit, often intersections. Permanent arrows may sometimes point to exits which you can't use or have limited utility (e.g. air domes but not surface access). Cookies are used to reinforce your exit in these circumstances as well. They never to negate anything. "Not this" kind of logic generates confusion- trust me on this one. I can explain/illustrate in person, but probably not over the internets. As a general rule, temporary arrows you place are not very useful because as Bdub said they can change the general navigation of the cave. Cookies are sometimes used in wrecks to mark locations of alternate (off line to the side) exits.

We always reinforce our own exits, either using the double enders on reels/spools, permanent arrows, temporary arrows (in certain circumstances), or cookies which are only directional relative to some other thing (intersection or arrow). Some of these are done for the group by the leader laying the line, some are done by each person.

[LCF]

Cookies are used to reinforce your exit in these circumstances as well. They never to negate anything. "Not this" kind of logic generates confusion- trust me on this one.

This confuses me, Richard. Were you not taught to put down a cookie if you encountered an arrow pointing AWAY from your exit? Both Danny and Fred did this.

[Sounder]

Who determines the navigational flow of the cave? Who determines where the arrows are and what direction they're pointed?

[Peter Guy]

Cookies are dropped by each diver.

While not wishing to contradict such an esteemed diver, I will. Not ALL agencies teach this. (Would you believe there is a difference among the agencies as to what is the proper protocol? Who'd of thunk it.) Anyway, TDI (or at least my TDI instructor) teaches one cookie per team with the whole team "OK'ing" the placement of the cookie. IF there was a separation (and how that would happen....) and I was forced to exit without my buddy, I would leave my cookie on the line just in case my buddy was behind me. (Query, the cookie is placed by #1 who is the first in and the last out so how would #2 or #3 get behind him?) Now if I were #2 or #3 who had gotten separated, I'd stay at the cookie until gas forced me to leave (that's assuming I'd done all the lost buddy searching I could).

I was also taught to negate ALL contrary arrows, which I guess is unlike GUE which only negates the first contrary arrow. (Query, if you have gotten lost, find the line and see what is, in fact, a contrary arrow without a negation, how do you know it is contrary if you haven't negated every contrary arrow? BTW, on my last cave dive in Mexico, the line we were on had contrary arrows about every 30 feet EXCEPT it also had one arrow pointing TO our exit -- but the GUE protocol was NOT to negate all the arrows, even though I kept trying to insist -- but I digress.)

I was also taught to put in an arrow for MY exit on an unmarked jump -- NOT to use a cookie there.

I guess the point is that there are differences.

[Phineas Gage]

So divers customize their cookies in some way in order to tell them apart?

[dsteding]

Oh, goodie. My first mod post here:

http://www.nwdiveclub.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5381

This is the UTD/DIR forum. I know this post will lead to debates, and there is a DIR/UTD protocol on this point (which is not the TDI protocol below).

If this turns into a DIR/non-DIR battle, I'll do something harsh, like delete posts and other nasty things I can do.

Cookies are dropped by each diver.

While not wishing to contradict such an esteemed diver, I will. Not ALL agencies teach this. (Would you believe there is a difference among the agencies as to what is the proper protocol? Who'd of thunk it.) Anyway, TDI (or at least my TDI instructor) teaches one cookie per team with the whole team "OK'ing" the placement of the cookie. IF there was a separation (and how that would happen....) and I was forced to exit without my buddy, I would leave my cookie on the line just in case my buddy was behind me. (Query, the cookie is placed by #1 who is the first in and the last out so how would #2 or #3 get behind him?) Now if I were #2 or #3 who had gotten separated, I'd stay at the cookie until gas forced me to leave (that's assuming I'd done all the lost buddy searching I could).

I was also taught to negate ALL contrary arrows, which I guess is unlike GUE which only negates the first contrary arrow. (Query, if you have gotten lost, find the line and see what is, in fact, a contrary arrow without a negation, how do you know it is contrary if you haven't negated every contrary arrow? BTW, on my last cave dive in Mexico, the line we were on had contrary arrows about every 30 feet EXCEPT it also had one arrow pointing TO our exit -- but the GUE protocol was NOT to negate all the arrows, even though I kept trying to insist -- but I digress.)

I was also taught to put in an arrow for MY exit on an unmarked jump -- NOT to use a cookie there.

I guess the point is that there are differences.

[Sounder]

So back to my question...

Who determines the navigational flow of the cave? Who determines where the arrows are and what direction they're pointed?

When is it changed? Are sacrificial "training caves" different from non-training caves? Who leaves and maintains the main-line?

[scottsax]

...there is a DIR/UTD protocol on this point....

Which is why I posted the question here. I'm also curious about how other agencies train, and will post something in the main Tech Diving forum for that discussion...

[scottsax]

So back to my question...

Who determines the navigational flow of the cave? Who determines where the arrows are and what direction they're pointed?

When is it changed? Are sacrificial "training caves" different from non-training caves? Who leaves and maintains the main-line?

I'm curious about this too...

[dsteding]

Which is why I posted the question here. I'm also curious about how other agencies train, and will post something in the main Tech Diving forum for that discussion...

Glad you did, and if it is possible, we can discuss the merits and alternatives of each if people play nice. I posted that note because this exact conversation has occurred between the exact players before with less-than stellar consequences.

[boydski]

So back to my question...

Who determines the navigational flow of the cave? Who determines where the arrows are and what direction they're pointed?

When is it changed? Are sacrificial "training caves" different from non-training caves? Who leaves and maintains the main-line?

Usually there is a multi-agency committee that sets up the primary guide lines and places (or removes) the navigational markers in a cave system. Changes are usually suggested and hashed out between the significant members before being enacted, but individuals do at times take it upon themselves to make changes to the lines. This has been a source of some friction between old timers that discovered and explored the caves, and land owner representatives that own the caves (Mexico, not so much in Florida).

Training in Mexico is typically done down-stream in areas that are mostly agreed upon by the local instructors. The flow tends to carry the "silt" away from the other cave divers enjoying the beautiful upstream caves. There isn't really a difference in how the lines are run/marked.

[Sounder]

Significant members of different agencies can work together for the benefit of the community... what a concept!!

Is the mainline made of a larger or more durable material or is it a different color than other line? What about arrow color/size?

Side note: I'm about to start learning how to run line so this is VERY interesting to me. Thank you.

[boydski]

So divers customize their cookies in some way in order to tell them apart?

Most cave divers customize their cookies, arrows and non-directional markers with individual holes, cuts, etc, that can be distinguished with no light. This allows the divers to confirm that the marker is their own when exiting with no lights.

Cookies and non-directional markers are relatively new. They used to use clothes-pins, but you can imagine what an errant fin kick would do to a clothes pin.

As Peter remarked on above, different agencies teach different line marking protocals, with the biggest difference typically being one marker for the team (non-DIR) or a marker for every member of the team. Both methods are still in use and the debate about which is best will continue to slowly evolve the way cave divers navigate.

Is the mainline made of a larger or more durable material or is it a different color than other line? What about arrow color/size?

Side note: I'm about to start learning how to run line so this is VERY interesting to me. Thank you.olve how the majority of cave divers navigate.

In most popular caves, the main line is "Kermantle" or a gold-colored line that is much thicker and stronger than ordinary cave line. It helps to keep the line in place through lots of abuse. Think Cavern tours in Cenotes... Very hard on the line.

Arrow colors don't seem to me to have any meaning other than you may know the jump you want is at the second blue arrow.

Some areas are starting to use the larger arrows for some of the permanent markers (like the double arrows that you might find at the half way point).

[CaptnJack]

Cookies are used to reinforce your exit in these circumstances as well. They never to negate anything. "Not this" kind of logic generates confusion- trust me on this one.

This confuses me, Richard. Were you not taught to put down a cookie if you encountered an arrow pointing AWAY from your exit? Both Danny and Fred did this.

It took me 24hrs to think of an internet example for you (see below). Yes I place a cookie to mark my exit when encountering a change in arrow direction. But think of this as marking relative to a blob. Unlike a "good arrow", the contrary arrow is meaningless to you, so don't give it any importance. You are not negating a "wrong arrow," your cookie is acting in the affirmative relative to a "thing". That "thing" may be a T or a jump or an arrow pointing away from your exit. It doesn't really matter what that other thing is, the cookie is just always on the exit side. Having a non-directional marker which sometimes "negates" other things and sometimes "reinforces" other things is a disaster waiting to happen. You want to (at all costs) avoid markers that depend on what the "thing" actually is for their meaning.

Here's why:
Assume a simple (albit somewhat rare and contrived situation) where the mid-point of a line has been marked like so
----<->---- (your exit is here on the right)

Now let's pretend those markers are spaced a bit apart like so:
-----<------->-------

If you imagine this via the "negate the bad arrow" rationale you would mark it like so
-----<-O----->-------

And you buddy just to place his like so, getting iffy
-----<-O-O--->-------

And lastly #3, uh oh already bad
-----<-O-O-O->-------

You and #2 pull yours
-----<-----O->-------
= disaster

If you ALWAYS adopt the perspective that cookie REINFORCE your exit. They act never act in the negative, only in the affirmative, you would conclude that this is the only to mark said mid-point.
-----<------->-O-O-O-

The < > acts as one aggregate "signpost" and your cookies are relative to that in that "thing's" entirety. If you approach the problem from this perspective you won't get into a "sometimes negative" "sometimes positive" quandary. Navigational quandaries are bad. Hope this is clear, you will find this exact problem on circuits in Ponderosa, although in that case its the 'classic' MX < >> marking a jump.

[airsix]

Richard, thank you very much for putting together that explanation and example.
-Ben

[LCF]

Okay, Richard. You and I are saying the same thing, but using different words, and maybe there's some value in phrasing it the way you are doing.

As far as the permanent lines go, the arrows should always point to the nearest gas source -- That may be an exit, or just an air done with a small hole in it (not someplace you can leave the cave). It may also be through a restriction, or a depth that is beyond your limits. That's why, when the arrows change, it's a good idea to mark YOUR exit direction, because the one thing you know (or should know) is that you can get back to YOUR exit with the gas you have.

Main lines in all the Florida caves I've dived are yellow kermantle, and marked with arrows every 100 feet. Main lines in MX can be just about anything from kermantle to #18 exploration line, and are sporadically marked, usually where there are jumps. Danny said he spent about three months putting in distance markers in some caves, and within a few weeks, they were all missing (why would anybody want to take a distance marker out of a cave?)

[Maverick]

If this turns into a DIR/non-DIR battle, I'll do something harsh, like delete posts and other nasty things I can do.

[/quote]


this is a good post, very informative. To bad there are no caves around here. Steding way to be Assertive, I Likes.

I think this thead is not going to be a battle ( I hope) but more opinions and questions. Here's a question (excuse my ignorance) How do you store there cookies and arrows on you as you dive? ? ? in a pocket? ? ?

[LCF]

Yes, we are taught to keep them on a pigtail in the left dry suit pocket. I've actually learned that I can reach into the pocket and remove a marker without ever pulling the pigtail out (and I can put them back that way, too!) The nice thing about keeping them in a pocket is that they don't dangle, and you're less likely to lose them. I have to say that I miss diving my wetsuit, though, because it was so easy to stick the "used" cookies down the neck of the suit, instead of putting them back on the pigtail!

Not every agency or instructor teaches pocket storage. My husband keeps his pigtail clipped to his left chest D-ring, and I've seen people clip them off on the hip D-ring as well. But GUE uses the pockets.