Extended Range Diving

[Bric Martin]

I was reading another thread about Helium for recreational depths. In that thread there was a link to another site where John Chatterton had posted his thoughts on TDI's Extended Range Diving program. Chatterton thought that the extended range class helped produce better divers.

At the risk of starting a war I have a question for the forum. Is there any value to a divers learning curve to go through a course like TDI's Extended Range Diving, or is every one going from an advanced Nitrox/Deco procedures into a Tri Mix class?

Bric

[CaptnJack]

Extended range is a major dinosaur. Adv. nitrox + deco air to 150ft is dumb enough, don't waste your money on the course or try to find a buddy for air dives to 180ft around here (you are unlikely to find many).

I would say the majority of the folks on this board did NOT go through a TDI/IANTD-like Adv Nitrox+ Deco procedures class on air in the >100ft depths at all. Most have either gone through NAUI-Tech's Intro to Tech and NAUI "Tech1" or GUE Fundementals and Tech1. Both agencies askew narcotic depths greater than roughly 100ft.

So I'm sure Chatterton thinks we're all sissys that can't dive. Considering the guy also has no clue about CO2 I'm not going to put too much stock in that.

So you might check out the followup:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4213516-post1.html

Day 4 was the deep dive to 180 feet. I am usually a "happy drunk" on narcosis, but I got a bad case of the paranoia and the tunnel vision and was very happy to get back to the line. Kept it all under control, but that was the first time I experienced narcosis that way (which I think was the point).

Basically, he lost it and this was in warm clear water with half as much crapola as you need around here.

To test out the whole concept locally for yourself, you might try diving the PBM (70ft) and the Hauler (105ft) in the south end of Lake WA and decide if doing those dives on top of one another is a good idea and will make you a highly skilled, narcosis immune, uber-diver.

[boydski]

At the risk of starting a war I have a question for the forum. Is there any value to a divers learning curve to go through a course like TDI's Extended Range Diving, or is every one going from an advanced Nitrox/Deco procedures into a Tri Mix class? Bric

Hi Bric,

Once upon a time, I took the TDI deco procedures/extended range/trimix classes. In my case all of the deep dives were done with helium, which as Richard suggests above, is really better. The very low visibility and dark waters that we run into at extended range depths here are much, much easier to handle when using helium to combat the narcosis and the "bad narc" that can cause anxiety and mistakes.

Remember that TDI was started by the Deep Air gang, and that using Trimix for deep dives is a fairly recent addition to their ciriculum. The best course of action is to find a good instructor (irregardless of which agency they work through) who's teaching style and goals match your own and plan on learning how to safely execute deeper dives with helium. We are lucky to have several very good instructors in our area, and many on this board.

[Maverick]

BRIC YOU CRAZY SON OF A &%$#@ YOU DIDN"T JUST ASK THAT DID YOU?
You asked for it

[Joshua Smith]

At the risk of starting a war I have a question for the forum. Is there any value to a divers learning curve to go through a course like TDI's Extended Range Diving, or is every one going from an advanced Nitrox/Deco procedures into a Tri Mix class?

Bric

Well- I did advanced nitrox and deco, and then CCR and then trimix. There may be some value to extended range, but I never took the class, so I can't comment on it. (Although John Chatterton has a lot to say about it in the thread I linked to.)My guess is that a good teacher would make it into a good class, and vice-versa. Gotta say, though, that the most common path I've seen is adv. eanx/ deco-->Normoxic Trimix--> Full Trimix (And then CCR, when you get sick of 80$ fills and blow your back out lugging 2x 130s!)

I'm a big fan of adv. eanx and deco- one of the best classes I ever took, and it completely changed the way I dive, forever. People who haven't taken it tend to be very critical of it, so that's another plus.

And as far as certain comments about John Chatterton go- I think Chatterton's experience speaks for itself. People criticize him, but the ones who do usually haven't done stuff like do penetration dives on the Brittanic in 390 fsw. I'd listen closely to anything the man had to say about diving.

[dsteding]

Bric-

I must admit I have to question your motives after your posts in the UTD thread on TDS, but I hope this is a relatively productive conversation.

Cheers,

-Doug

[Tom Nic]

If everybody remains civil, I actually like to hear the differing perspectives and hope the discussion continues.

It's OK to have an opinion, and have a strong one - in fact I like it when someone is fairly passionate about what they believe. As long as it remains in the realm of ideas and doesn't degenerate into name calling and urinating contests then it's all good. If a person's ideas have merit they will stand on their own without the rest of the crap.

I hope other's will continue the conversation - if indeed it stays a conversation.

[dsteding]

Bric sent me a note saying he's serious, and I'll respect that by jumping in here.

I've read Chatterton's rationale for extended range before trimix, and I respect what he's done. I think the root of what he was saying is that you need to build experience--and that one way to get experience is to do a bunch of deep dives on air.

I'll agree with that statement, it is clearly one way to build experience, and experience is a good thing--necessary for technical diving. So, in that light, what Chatterton is saying is unremarkable to me.

But (and you knew there would be a but) there are multiple ways to build experience. And, in this case, I have to ask WHY does Chatterton think deep air experience is a good thing? I have to guess a bit here, but I think he's getting at comfort in the water--which leads to the ability to problem solve. I have no doubt that a diver with 100 narcosis-numbing dives to 180 feet on air could build the comfort level to be a good problem solver. However, I do think it is possible that 100 dives to 180 on air could still lead to a diver that is not per se well rounded.

Which makes me ask my next question: Is there a way to build the experience necessary to do trimix dives safely? I see as two parts, a broad level of experience--including skills--to execute the dive, and a different level of experience to maintain the zen-like calm necessary to problem solve underwater. Chatterton's premise is that extended range gets you there on both these points, I think. I'll accept that with the caveat that a diver with a 100 deep air dives can still be a wreck underwater.

What is missing from what Chatterton is saying is this : There are other ways to get you there these days. Experience in terms of skills to execute the dive can come from a combination of training and seeking out varied dive conditions. The "zen-like calm" can be taught--trust me, I know from experience (this is the central premise of Andrew's training, and I've summarized it in the past). I do believe that, in the old-school framework that Chatterton worked within the training (i.e., technical agencies) and the "zen-like calm" were not as readily available to the masses. So, one was left with doing a bunch of deep air dives, surviving and moving into trimix. This old-school approach seems to recently be percolating to the surface again (DWW) and I must think it is the old-timers naturally saying that "this is the way I did it, and I survived, so it must be the way you should do it." While I respect those that have come before me, and I understand one's perspective is shaped by personal experience, I disagree.

Things are dramatically than 20 years ago. There are different, more modern, and arguably safer paths to 200 feet, or wherever you want to go. I think what Chatterton is saying needs to be placed in that context, as well as the context that his views will be shaped by his personal experiences.

As I've said elsewhere, my diving is about risk, assessing, understanding and managing it. If there is too much risk for me, I don't do the dive. My training is guided by those principles. I haven't done extended range because I have no desire to go to 180 on air around here. Andrew doesn't teach "advanced nitrox" because it is basically a deep air class. I also firmly believe I possess the skills, experience and judgment to execute the dives I do--down to 160 or so, on helium mixes with 50% for deco.

This is a long way of saying that you, as an individual, need to fully understand what you are getting into. Seek a breadth of information, but be humble enough and questioning enough to understand the source of that information and also to understand your own limitations. A personal training approach that is successful is necessarily humble: ego and "too far to fast" kills.

[John Rawlings]

I would say the majority of the folks on this board did NOT go through a TDI/IANTD-like Adv Nitrox+ Deco procedures class on air in the >100ft depths at all. Most have either gone through NAUI-Tech's Intro to Tech and NAUI "Tech1" or GUE Fundementals and Tech1.

Nonsense. There are plenty of "folks on this board" that did not choose to follow that route. In fact, I would guess that probably the "majority" of NWDC members that are tech trained did not go through the route you describe. Most do not post frequently so the numbers are not obvious (old farts that look askanse at this new-fangled internet stuff!). Many members here have taken their tech training through TDI or IANTD.

But....that is not what this discussion is primarily about.

A lot of us were doing deep dives when Trimix was NOT readily available....in fact, I and a couple of my buddies were diving well beyond 130 FSW before we had even HEARD the word "Trimix". It was simply what you had to do back then. I actually took the "extended range" class through IANTD when it was known simply as "Deep Air"....it always gets a raised eyebrow whenever someone notices the card in my log book, but then they take a look at my gray beard and they understand..... I guess that I'm one of those "old school" divers that gets sneered at by the "progressives". Having gone through that training and made those dives on "Deep Air", I believe that I have a better understanding of my own personal abilities when dealing with narcosis and my body's reaction to it. Contrary to what others say, I well remember certain aspects of those dives - how I was impacted, how I felt, how I was impaired - and take those things into consideration whenever I plan dives now. Taking that training and doing those dives has given me a certain perspective that those that have only dived Trimix can probably not understand, but it is simply like everything else in life - each of us is a conglomeration of our own personal experiences.

Having said those things, though, I would agree with your stance that diving deep on air is not a good thing in this day and age when Trimix is readily available. It makes no sense to me to not use the tools that are readily available that will both increase the enjoyment of the dive, contribute to the success of the dive, and add to the safety of the dive. Trimix, therefore, is an extremely valuable tool and a diver would be foolish if they chose NOT to use it whenever and wherever it is available. So long as I can get Trimix for my deep dives I shall use it....period.

If, however, I am unable to obtain it for whatever reason, (for example, there are many locations on Earth where helium is simply flat out NOT available), my experiences with air at depth are such that I would continue to do the dives that I want to do without trepidation.

If there can be said to be any advantage to an "Extended Range" or "Deep Air" training course, I guess that it would be that it clearly shows you what you are capable of doing and what you are not capable of doing.

- John

[rjw]

I would say the majority of the folks on this board did NOT go through a TDI/IANTD-like Adv Nitrox+ Deco procedures class on air in the >100ft depths at all. Most have either gone through NAUI-Tech's Intro to Tech and NAUI "Tech1" or GUE Fundementals and Tech1.

Nonsense. There are plenty of "folks on this board" that did not choose to follow that route. In fact, I would guess that probably the "majority" of NWDC members that are tech trained did not go through the route you describe. Most do not post frequently so the numbers are not obvious (old farts that look askanse at this new-fangled internet stuff!). Many members here have taken their tech training through TDI or IANTD.

But....that is not what this discussion is primarily about.

A lot of us were doing deep dives when Trimix was NOT readily available....in fact, I and a couple of my buddies were diving well beyond 130 FSW before we had even HEARD the word "Trimix". It was simply what you had to do back then. I actually took the "extended range" class through IANTD when it was known simply as "Deep Air"....it always gets a raised eyebrow whenever someone notices the card in my log book, but then they take a look at my gray beard and they understand..... I guess that I'm one of those "old school" divers that gets sneered at by the "progressives". Having gone through that training and made those dives on "Deep Air", I believe that I have a better understanding of my own personal abilities when dealing with narcosis and my body's reaction to it. Contrary to what others say, I well remember certain aspects of those dives - how I was impacted, how I felt, how I was impaired - and take those things into consideration whenever I plan dives now. Taking that training and doing those dives has given me a certain perspective that those that have only dived Trimix can probably not understand, but it is simply like everything else in life - each of us is a conglomeration of our own personal experiences.

Having said those things, though, I would agree with your stance that diving deep on air is not a good thing in this day and age when Trimix is readily available. It makes no sense to me to not use the tools that are readily available that will both increase the enjoyment of the dive, contribute to the success of the dive, and add to the safety of the dive. Trimix, therefore, is an extremely valuable tool and a diver would be foolish if they chose NOT to use it whenever and wherever it is available. So long as I can get Trimix for my deep dives I shall use it....period.

If, however, I am unable to obtain it for whatever reason, (for example, there are many locations on Earth where helium is simply flat out NOT available), my experiences with air at depth are such that I would continue to do the dives that I want to do without trepidation.

If there can be said to be any advantage to an "Extended Range" or "Deep Air" training course, I guess that it would be that it clearly shows you what you are capable of doing and what you are not capable of doing.

- John

Well put John.
From another "old school guy"

[Tom Nic]

Good posts Doug and John. I appreciate the discussion and the perspectives.

[Joshua Smith]

Really well said, John- I couldn't agree more.

[dsteding]

If there can be said to be any advantage to an "Extended Range" or "Deep Air" training course, I guess that it would be that it clearly shows you what you are capable of doing and what you are not capable of doing.

- John

But, reiterating my point about risk assessment, do you want to find out what you are not capable of doing at 180 feet, on air? Is that really the best way to figure that out?

Good training--regardless of agency--will teach you what you are not capable of doing as well as what you are capable of doing. I'll also reiterate that the "capable of doing" really falls into two categories: 1) skills (which most can learn) and 2) mindset--i.e., the ability to understand, control and manage panic.

The latter point is what I find to be a bit illogical about teaching deep air in this day and age to, as you put it, find out what your capabilities are--180 feet, narc'd and panicked is not a good situation, regardless of the color of your beard.

[CaptnJack]

Doug, what you are getting at is...
Part of what makes a "deep air" diver "good" is the fact that they need to have their motor skills wired in order to function. That is a huge plus, but also a major blindspot because mental faculties will be dulled when novel circumstances and conditions come up. You don't need to be "slow" and mentally compromised to get basic (or even many advanced) skills refined. Although many people might laugh at the amount of "practicing" you might do.

(note: I am not a big fan of scads of practicing. I would prefer to go diving in less committing but novel conditions and actually use the whole toolbox, just not at 120-180ft with a deco obligation)

[dsteding]

(note: I am not a big fan of scads of practicing. I would prefer to go diving in less committing but novel conditions and actually use the whole toolbox, just not at 120-180ft with a deco obligation)

I agree. Implicit, or maybe an explicit part of what I am saying is that too much practice is perhaps just as short-sighted as deep air these days. One (practice) may turn you into a Cove 2 Commando. The other--deep air--may make you an effective drunk driver, but you are still drunk.

A bit more reasoned approach is to learn to drive (extending that analogy), learn to drive well, learn to drive in varied conditions, go driving, then learn how to drive in new, more challenging conditions. But do all that with the advantage of the lessons of those grey-bearded dudes that came before us, without repeating some of their scarier moments just for a notch on the ole' diving belt.

[Joshua Smith]

But, reiterating my point about risk assessment, do you want to find out what you are not capable of doing at 180 feet, on air? Is that really the best way to figure that out?

Good training--regardless of agency--will teach you what you are not capable of doing as well as what you are capable of doing. I'll also reiterate that the "capable of doing" really falls into two categories: 1) skills (which most can learn) and 2) mindset--i.e., the ability to understand, control and manage panic.

The latter point is what I find to be a bit illogical about teaching deep air in this day and age to, as you put it, find out what your capabilities are--180 feet, narc'd and panicked is not a good situation, regardless of the color of your beard.

It's a personal choice. If you're prone to panic, maybe technical diving isn't something you should be doing, though. I did my share of deep air. Despite some people saying that advanced nitrox and deco being a "dumb" class, I maintain that it was one of the very best classes I ever took- it revolutionized diving for me, taught me how to plan and execute decompression dives and use technical gear. And, yes, dive to 150' without benefit of Helium. In my opinion, dismissing this path towards trimix training and deeper dives as "Stupid", or something that "Dinosaur" training agencies push, is pretty short sighted- I loved it, and I recieved top-tier training. I'm a much better diver as a result of that training. Is it the only way? Of course not. But it worked really well for me- and quite a few other people as well.

[CaptnJack]

I agree. Implicit, or maybe an explicit part of what I am saying is that too much practice is perhaps just as short-sighted as deep air these days. One (practice) may turn you into a Cove 2 Commando. The other--deep air--may make you an effective drunk driver, but you are still drunk.

[CaptnJack]

It's a personal choice. If you're prone to panic, maybe technical diving isn't something you should be doing, though. I did my share of deep air. Despite some people saying that advanced nitrox and deco being a "dumb" class, I maintain that it was one of the very best classes I ever took- it revolutionized diving for me, taught me how to plan and execute decompression dives and use technical gear. And, yes, dive to 150' without benefit of Helium. In my opinion, dismissing this path towards trimix training and deeper dives as "Stupid", or something that "Dinosaur" training agencies push, is pretty short sighted- I loved it, and I recieved top-tier training. I'm a much better diver as a result of that training. Is it the only way? Of course not. But it worked really well for me- and quite a few other people as well.

Everyone thinks their class was the "greatest" (or more rarely, horrible). I can't recall the psychology term for it, but its a very common way of rationalizing the world. Not saying you're wrong, just that there are very very few people that have done multiple paths from "scratch". You'd need a 15yr hiatus or something to really be 'starting over' with an alternative path.

[dsteding]

If you're prone to panic, maybe technical diving isn't something you should be doing, though.

Totally agreed. I will venture to say that all of us have a threshold for panic--if a diver thinks otherwise, well, they just are inexperienced in that regard. Panic needs to be understood and respected, not dismissed. Or, stated differently, there is a point in the water when stressed where one will give up--and that can be pushed back (and should be pushed back) with experience and good training.

I do think some training is insufficient in this regard. Remarkably so-some instructors just seem to not take this as seriously as they should. Once again, not agency specific, just a general comment.

[Joshua Smith]

Would it be fair to say I really enjoyed it, I learned a lot of really neat skills that I still use today, and it gave me a new kind of confidence in the water, while challenging me and teaching me a lot about myself, as well as about diving? I realize that I can't compare it to another training path, but by the same light, I don't see how someone who didn't take the training can criticize it.

[dsteding]

Would it be fair to say I really enjoyed it, I learned a lot of really neat skills that I still use today, and it gave me a new kind of confidence in the water, while challenging me and teaching me a lot about myself, as well as about diving? I realize that I can't compare it to another training path, but by the same light, I don't see how someone who didn't take the training can criticize it.

Sounds great, seriously--and you know I respect you as a diver. This stuff always degrades to a personal level. Let's bring it back to the Chatterton post you quoted:

Personally, I think the Extended Range course is not just valuable training but important to diver development.

He seems to be saying to me that extended range is important--perhaps even necessary--to diver development. I disagree, I think that is a bit of an antiquated perspective, and I say that with respect.

Deep air isn't necessary anymore. Modern training and being a thinking diver means you can chart a path without being at 180 and narc'd out of your gourd. That doesn't mean you will learn much if you do go that route, I'm sure there are good deep air instructors out there. I'm just not sure it is the most efficient, or even necessary path today.

[Joshua Smith]

Like I said- I can only speak for myself, and address the training that I personally took. For me, I think it was the right path. It's not for everyone, but it worked for me, and most of the people I dive with. I do advocate using Helium on deeper dives, but I see nothing wrong with learning to dive between 130-180 on air first. For one thing, it gives you a much better idea what Helium can, and cannot, do for you. For another, it teaches you to manage and deal with narcossis. I know that many people say it can't be "managed", but I don't agree. Maybe some people can, and others cannot- that's certainly possible. I appear to be one who can. It's a remote, unimaginable scenario, but if I had to switch to a gas with a high END on some dive that went to hell, I wouldn't be overly concerned about having to do so. And if I ever make it to somewhere like Bikini, where they routinely dive the amazing wrecks on air in 180 fsw, I will be just fine.

For another person, I can't say whether or not learning deep air before trimix is the right thing to do. But I definitely feel that it was right for me. Some of the benefits I percieve from learning this way are intangible, and hard to quantify. But I don't think it makes me a better diver than someone who took a different path- we just took different routes.

[Tom Nic]

This is Tom still appreciating the discussion - it's been valuable for me to perch on the side and listen.

[dsteding]

But I definitely feel that it was right for me.

I'll accept that--and I won't debate it. But, your quote of Chatterton in the other thread said it was "important" to diver development. Then Chatterton goes on to give the example of "Bart" who seems to be an idiot. All I can deduce from that is that you shouldn't be doing deep dives if you are an idiot, I don't see how doing deep dives on air is "important" in reaching that conclusion (except, perhaps if you are an idiot on helium, you'll know that it is you being an idiot, not the gas you are breathing).

I find Chatterton's post ultimately ironic because it is exactly the same type of post that gave DIR a bad name--namely, you must do it this way (Deep Air) because it is "important" to diver development--implicitly saying that if you don't do it that way, you are not a "developed" diver. That is BS.

John provided his perspective (and he styles himself in the old school camp):

Having said those things, though, I would agree with your stance that diving deep on air is not a good thing in this day and age when Trimix is readily available. It makes no sense to me to not use the tools that are readily available that will both increase the enjoyment of the dive, contribute to the success of the dive, and add to the safety of the dive.

While I don't think this is entirely on-point because it is a treatise on deep air in general (and not deep air as an "important" part of diver development), I'll ask you, Josh, if you would approach your training the same way given the benefits of hindsight?

[boydski]

And if I ever make it to somewhere like Bikini, where they routinely dive the amazing wrecks on air in 180 fsw, I will be just fine.

Josh brings up some good points. I've been given the opportunity several times to dive deeper wrecks when no helium was available (Sanfrancisco Maru for example), and having the background of extended range diving does allow you to evaluate your risk from the standpoint of having "been there before".