Wah-wahs....

[scottsax]

I realize this is old, and in light of the conversations recently about deep air it may only add fuel to the fire, but here's my bucket of gasoline.

I linked to this article after searching for hyperbaric arthralgia on google....

http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/text/wahwah.txt

The second half of the write up is a dive report that gave me the willies....

Has anyone here ever experienced hyperbaric arthralgia or "the wah wahs?"

[dsteding]

I've heard quiet wah-wahs as shallow as 85 feet when exerting myself. At around 110 if I'm dehydrated or working I'll hear them on 32% (note this is how I really learned the value of being hydrated).

I've read that stuff before. Crazy, stupid crap. But, I bet he was able to control his narcosis much better afterwards--and is probably a better diver for it. Really. Some would say that is necessary to being a good tech diver.

Personally, I think good judgment and not paying attention to peer pressure are better attributes in a tech diver. But, hey, that is just me as a newbie.

[Rockfish]

I've experienced the wah-wahs. I got some training from Wings Stocks back in 1994 in deep diving. Our graduation dive was on the Al-Ind-Esk-A-Sea. We went to 220 on air. Before everyone starts saying that we should not have done that keep in mind that this was 1994. Nitrox was just being introduced (very slowly since a major dive publication and training agency considered it "voodoo gas") and trimix was something that very few people knew about let alone had access to it. Since that time we have dove to depths only with trimix I would never ever do it again on air.

We were using Poseiden regulators and at about 180 - 200 feet the flow of air thru the regulators is horrendously loud. Thankfully technology and training have advanced so much since then that no one should have to experience the wah-wahs.

Mike

[scottsax]

The wah-wahs are interesting to me-is that blood pumping through your ears combined with CO2 loading and...what? I just don't know.

But the real interesting thing to me is what causes hyperbaric arthralgia, and why helium is involved.... If you can create arthritic symptoms, could you treat arthritis with hyperbaric medicine? (They probably already do, but I'm curious nonetheless...)

[dsteding]

Thankfully technology and training have advanced so much since then that no one should have to experience the wah-wahs.

Mike

Thanks for sharing Mike--sounds not so fun. I find it interesting that so many people that have been there done that, particularly in the context of pre-nitrox or trimix days--make comments like the one of yours I quoted. Appreciate the perspective.

[Joshua Smith]

Jesus. That's a scary freaking story.

[scottsax]

Jesus. That's a scary freaking story.

I know-I could feel the creeping horrors panic coming up the back of my neck while I was reading it. I have no doubt that that experience taught him a great deal about his own limits, and made him a better diver after, but I have to ask: why put yourself in the position that only your basic, reptilian will to live is keeping you alive?

But back on track: hyperbaric arthralgia? Any trimix divers out there experienced that?

[Joshua Smith]

Jesus. That's a scary freaking story.

I know-I could feel the creeping horrors panic coming up the back of my neck while I was reading it. I have no doubt that that experience taught him a great deal about his own limits, and made him a better diver after, but I have to ask: why put yourself in the position that only your basic, reptilian will to live is keeping you alive?

But back on track: hyperbaric arthralgia? Any trimix divers out there experienced that?

No, I've never had auditory effects from Narcosis. One of my buddies has reported them a few times. I think it's a symptom that some people get, and others don't, but I'm just guessing. And all my deep air dives were like, between 130-180', and to 200' once- these guys were talking about doing 300- 400'. On aluminum 80s. I've taken a fair bit of flack for MY experience with deep air, but the guys in the article really were pushing the envelope. pp02 of air at 300' = 1.9, @ 400'=2.5. For all I know, the "wah wahs" happen to everyone that deep.

[scottsax]

Interesting...hyperbaric arthralgia is mentioned in the October 1991 NOAA Diving Manual.

Divers who are being compressed to deep depths while breathing helium-oxygen mixtures may experience other physiological phenomena. Hyperbaric arthralgia (pain in the joints) may occur during compression and after arrival at the maximum depth. These pains tend to improve with time and can be controlled by compressing slowly.

Is this discussed in Trimix/Tech classes? Is it only from fast descents to extreme depths, or does it not need to be too deep, just breathing helium while descending?

[dsteding]

but the guys in the article really were pushing the envelope. pp02 of air at 300' = 1.9, @ 400'=2.5. For all I know, the "wah wahs" happen to everyone that deep.

Remember, it is thought that the sedative effects of narcosis offset the toxicity of oxygen, so deep air divers who have pushed their PPO2s don't tend to tox.

[scottsax]

Since it's happened to many people (anecdotally, anyway,) is there any kind of research into what, physiologically, causes the wahwahs?

[airsix]

That is messed up.

This was good though (the can I help rule)

On the first day I dove deep I was completely in control, I was
completely capable of helping somebody else...which is my measurement of
my comfort level. If I feel that I cannot help somebody else, I'm in over
my head. I don't like being able to just take care of ,,~ I like to take
care of someone else if there's a problem. If I can't. I have no business
being there.

[Joshua Smith]

Interesting...hyperbaric arthralgia is mentioned in the October 1991 NOAA Diving Manual.

Divers who are being compressed to deep depths while breathing helium-oxygen mixtures may experience other physiological phenomena. Hyperbaric arthralgia (pain in the joints) may occur during compression and after arrival at the maximum depth. These pains tend to improve with time and can be controlled by compressing slowly.

Is this discussed in Trimix/Tech classes? Is it only from fast descents to extreme depths, or does it not need to be too deep, just breathing helium while descending?

Oh- sorry, I thought we were still talking about wah wahs. No, I've never come across that term before. Trimix training focuses on ascent rates, because Helium can come out of solution faster than Nitrogen. Descents are pretty much calculated at 60 feet per minute, I think...gotta dig up my book and check; it's not something I think about much. I wonder what kinds of depths the NOAA manual is referencing?

[Joshua Smith]

but the guys in the article really were pushing the envelope. pp02 of air at 300' = 1.9, @ 400'=2.5. For all I know, the "wah wahs" happen to everyone that deep.

Remember, it is thought that the sedative effects of narcosis offset the toxicity of oxygen, so deep air divers who have pushed their PPO2s don't tend to tox.

New one on me, but it would explain some of the crazy ass stuff Exley did.

[spatman]

"Natural selection is a slow process." - i need to keep that in mind more often.

[Bric Martin]

If these dives were supposed to be kept quiet, I wonder what else these guys have done? That would be a fun book.

[CaptnJack]

Interesting...hyperbaric arthralgia is mentioned in the October 1991 NOAA Diving Manual.

Divers who are being compressed to deep depths while breathing helium-oxygen mixtures may experience other physiological phenomena. Hyperbaric arthralgia (pain in the joints) may occur during compression and after arrival at the maximum depth. These pains tend to improve with time and can be controlled by compressing slowly.

Is this discussed in Trimix/Tech classes? Is it only from fast descents to extreme depths, or does it not need to be too deep, just breathing helium while descending?

"Extreme" in this context is commercial saturation depths (1000+ft) not our piddly little 4 min drops to 200ft. Lots of weird things happen way down there (like needing small percentages of N2 in the breathing as to allow nerve synapses to fire correctly, avoiding HPNS). Its kinda like quantum mechanics and quarks, day to day they are not particularly relevant.

[Pez7378]

Experience is a word everybody ought to look up in the dictionary. You don't get It simply by
sewing patches on your f*ckin' dive jacket. You gotta go out there and get wet.

Perhaps someone should tell GUEFundiesDiver that.

[spatman]

Experience is a word everybody ought to look up in the dictionary. You don't get It simply by sewing patches on your f*ckin' dive jacket. You gotta go out there and get wet.

Perhaps someone should tell GUEFundiesDiver that.

that guy is hilarious! some of the funniest stuff i've read on TDM.

[Pez7378]

Ooooh! Thanks for the ninja edit!

Yeah, he's funny. WKPP patch! Hahahahaha

[Sounder]

Is that going again?

[Pez7378]

"Natural selection is a slow process." - i need to keep that in mind more often.

This is very similar to one of my quotes at work:

Natural selection takes too long"

[BigFameOne]

"Natural selection is a slow process." - i need to keep that in mind more often.

This is very similar to one of my quotes at work:

Natural selection takes too long"

Tazer shields are FAST though.

[Sounder]

"Natural selection is a slow process." - i need to keep that in mind more often.

This is very similar to one of my quotes at work:

Natural selection takes too long"

Tazer shields are FAST though.

The double-darts are quick too.