to bungee or not to bungee

[Paulicarp]

I've been looking at OMS wings. They can be purchased with or without bungees. What are the pros and cons of bungees, and why do some intro to tech classes (I guess it's actually the instructor) specifically prohibit the use of wings with bungees in their class?

--Paulicarp

[Burntchef]

they do seem to attract a lot of controversy. the theory behind them from my understanding is the bungee keeps the air bubble in one place. not really sure why thats such a big deal but i am not that familiar with oms. i think there are or were a lot of rumors about the bungee catching line and getting snagged on things but i have a feeling some of that comes from old school east coast wreckers -vs- everyone else.

if it works for you then go ahead with it, i myself wouldnt be overly concerned with it.

oh and if your instructor says no bungee in there class ask why, if they dont have a solid reason find some one else to take tech from.

[Sounder]

Yes, look for the "why" in everything. I'll let the tech instructors answer the why since it was asked of them... but as Howard says, always ask for the "why" and if they can't answer that, perhaps look for a different instructor.

[Nwbrewer]

Aren't you working on your OW? Tech training already?

I know one of the reasons given, is that the bungees are putting continuous pressure on the wing. This (supposedly) can do a few different things. 1) It can make it vent faster in the event that the wing develops a small leak. 2) It can trap gas in between the folds of the bungee.

I have a wing on a BC that has a stretchy outer lycra shell (think fusion drysuit). It acts kind of like the bungee, in that it allows you to dive a wing with a lot more lift potential without having to worry about the tacoing thing. It never trapped any gas on me, but I had a dump go bad, and I can vouch for reason number 1 for not liking bungees. It's not that bad, but I don't think my regular wing would have dumped as much gas, the dump is on the bottom, so on a regular wing, it really wouldn't have vented like it was. Not that big of a deal, but in my mind there are more reasons against them than for them. I'd just get a properly sized wing.

[Joshua Smith]

I don't have anything against bungees, per se. But I used to own an OMS bungied wing that never worked well. The bungees would create "scrunchy" areas that would trap air in the bladder that couldn't be vented without major contortions. No matter how many times I re-threaded the bungees, I couldn't fix it. After switching to a non-bungied wing, I wondered what the point of having them at all was.

The arguments I've heard against them are kind of weird- difficulty with oral inflation and entanglement hazards are the two I've heard the most often- neither of which seemed like a real problem to me.

FWIW, I think there are some much better wings on the market than the OMS ones. Golem Gear and Deep Sea Supply come to mind.

[Paulicarp]

Aren't you working on your OW? Tech training already?

BUSTED! that's the problem with "cyber diving"; dreams and theory get ahead of practical reality.

I have a wing on a BC that has a stretchy outer lycra shell (think fusion drysuit).

sounds interesting, what brand is it?

[Sounder]

Another idea when looking at gear is to ask what brands/models people around here are diving. If you're interested in back plate & wing set-up, toss out a question of what people use and like... see what they like/dislike about it. You'll notice some trends, and while there is a lot of marketing material in the dive gear world to sift through as a new diver, if you follow the trends you'll find that people have may have done a lot of your homework for you.

[Nwbrewer]

Aren't you working on your OW? Tech training already?

BUSTED! that's the problem with "cyber diving"; dreams and theory get ahead of practical reality.

I have a wing on a BC that has a stretchy outer lycra shell (think fusion drysuit).

sounds interesting, what brand is it?

Wow, sounder managed to post about BP/W setups without mentioning DSS? WTF?

Paul, I have no idea, I bought it used and the only marking on it is "Made in America".

[Sounder]

Aren't you working on your OW? Tech training already?

BUSTED! that's the problem with "cyber diving"; dreams and theory get ahead of practical reality.

I have a wing on a BC that has a stretchy outer lycra shell (think fusion drysuit).

sounds interesting, what brand is it?

Wow, sounder managed to post about BP/W setups without mentioning DSS? WTF?

Paul, I have no idea, I bought it used and the only marking on it is "Made in America".

I just suggested he might want to ask what people are using... if he asks, you know what my answer will be.

[Joshua Smith]

Aren't you working on your OW? Tech training already?

BUSTED! that's the problem with "cyber diving"; dreams and theory get ahead of practical reality.

I have a wing on a BC that has a stretchy outer lycra shell (think fusion drysuit).

sounds interesting, what brand is it?

Don't worry about it at all. Ask all the questions you want, that's what this place is for.

I was trying to learn everything about tech diving I could while I was an OW student, too. Just don't try and do the dives without the training and experience.

[Sounder]

Don't worry about it at all. Ask all the questions you want, that's what this place is for.

I was trying to learn everything about tech diving I could while I was an OW student, too. Just don't try and do the dives without the training and experience.

SO whatchu wanna know Paulicarp?

[Nwbrewer]

Aren't you working on your OW? Tech training already?

BUSTED! that's the problem with "cyber diving"; dreams and theory get ahead of practical reality.

I have a wing on a BC that has a stretchy outer lycra shell (think fusion drysuit).

sounds interesting, what brand is it?

Don't worry about it at all. Ask all the questions you want, that's what this place is for.

I was trying to learn everything about tech diving I could while I was an OW student, too. Just don't try and do the dives without the training and experience.

Yeah Paul I didn't intend to come across as discouraging. If you know that tech diving is definitely something you want to do that 's great, and asking questions here is a great way to get information, especially before buying any gear.

Oh and Sounder, I have your new avatar -

DSS.JPG (8.99 KiB) Viewed 2599 times

[BigFameOne]

Nothing wrong with asking questions and doing homework. I sat in on an Intro to Tech class and on a Tech 1 class before I had even gotten one dive in beyond my OW classes. I think it is a great way to see why some of he why's make sense down the road. Plus if anyone needs to know the equivalent narcotic depth of a helium mix I can do the math and the only time I have ever breathed helium was at birthday parties as a kid.

[Paulicarp]

Yeah Paul I didn't intend to come across as discouraging. If you know that tech diving is definitely something you want to do that 's great, and asking questions here is a great way to get information, especially before buying any gear.

No worries- I'm not discouraged at all. I'm sure that tech is where I want to be. I can enjoy nudies and plumose while I develop skills, but I know that my appetite for adventure will push me on. In that I'm commited to advanced diving activities in the future, it does have an impact on the gear that I will buy now. Clearly I don't need a drysuit for doing my OW, but why would I invest in a wetsuit that I plan on replacing with a drysuit in a few months. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like alot of these decisions need to be informed not only by where we're at today, but also where we intend to ultimately go. On the other hand, I don't want to be the guy who buys an Atomic ST1 for his OW just because he thinks he has to spend all the money right away!

[BigFameOne]

"Buy nice or buy twice" is something you will hear often Paul.

[Paulicarp]

did I just highjack my own thread?

[Joshua Smith]

did I just highjack my own thread?

It happens.


You're right to ask tons of questions, especially if you want to pursue advanced dives in the future. With that in mind, it's hard to go wrong with the Hogarthian, Naui-Tech type of configuration. I've used the same back plate and harness for everything from singles, to doubles, to my rebreather. (different wings for all of them, but they're pretty easy to sell, too.)

[Sounder]

Yeah, it's no secret... I DO love Deep Sea Supply (DSS) gear!! Many folks here do and sometimes it looks like DSS sponsored the dive when we've got 8-10 DSS rigs all lined up in a row. I will say, however, that as much as I promote and love DSS products, there are other great products available too.

One piece of unsolicited advice to give is that if you're having an issue with something (whatever it may be), don't turn to buying/adding a new piece of gear to solve it. There is a good chance that it may be a skill/experience thing and that with some help from folks here, and practice with someone who can help you in the water, that you can fix that issue instead of adding a piece of gear to compensate for the problem. Food for thought.

[Nwbrewer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like alot of these decisions need to be informed not only by where we're at today, but also where we intend to ultimately go. On the other hand, I don't want to be the guy who buys an Atomic ST1 for his OW just because he thinks he has to spend all the money right away!

This kind of thinking is gonna save you a bunch of $$$$.

[vbcoachchris]

Here is the classic list of “why”

Bungeed Wing

Argument for: More Stable, better balance and trim
Rebuttal: Hog wash a properly size wing is very balanced and stable

Argument for: More Streamlined
Rebuttal: Bungees are only needed if the wing is too large for the cylinders. If you have a properly sized wing it is very streamlined

Argument for: The bungees reduce air shifting from one side of the wing to another
Rebuttal: Air needs to be able to move freely in order to vent properly

Argument for: The bungees reduce the tendency of wings to build up air in the rear, which then pulls up and makes it more difficult to deflate the wing quickly and fully from a prone position.
Rebuttal: If you are weighted properly and in trim this is a non issue

Argument for: They look cool
Rebuttal: No they look stupid

Non Bungeed wing

Argument for: Bugged wings are usually way more lift than I diver would ever need
Rebuttal: You can’t have too much lift

Argument for: Can trap gas in “pockets” between Bungees
Rebuttal: OMS has new straps have supposedly fixed the issue

Argument for: Might help deflate the wing if there is minor bladder damage.
Rebuttal: No damaged wing will hold air

Argument for: Adds resistance when orally inflating
Rebuttal: Minor issue the layperson will not notice it

Argument for: Bungeed wings are an entanglement hazarded
Rebuttal: What are the odds it will actually catch on something?

Argument for: Bungeed wings are more expensive
Rebuttal: None

Argument for: They look stupid
Rebuttal: No they look cool

There is no magic wing. Wings are not one sizes fits all diving. I own four different styles and I use them all depending on my objective. For single tank diving in the tropics a 20-30 lb wing seems to work great. Here in the PNW, I find a 35-40 lb wing is usually a better choice. For doubles a 35-50 lb wing seems works well for 7.25’’ tanks. 55-60 lb wings seems to work best with 8’’ tanks.

I can not think of a situation where a diver would need more than 60lbs of lift. You need approximately enough lift to off set the weight that you are over weighted at the beginning of the dive AND support your teammate if they had a catastrophic wing failure on the surface. The wing should be able to support your cylinders and back plate in the water when you are not in it.

No wing is going to make you a better diver. I know divers that could probably stay in trim diving two industrial “T” bottles manifolded together, while using empty milk jugs for lift. Some things will work better than others, but in general I find it is always better to only “fix the problem” when there is really is a problem. Adding equipment to fix a skill issue or adding equipment to fix a problem that does not exist in the first place is rarely a great idea. It almost always ends up being more expensive and you usually end up with an inferior result.

Personally I find bungeed wings offer me zero benefit and they are more expensive, so “why” would I buy it.

NAUI’s NTEC configuration does not allow Bungeed wings regardless of the instructor.

I own 2 different styles of Halcyon and 2 different styles of OMS wings. The Halcyon Wings were great right off the shelf. I found that I needed to adjust the OMS wings a bit.

I had to:

Remove ball on the end of dump valve string
Replace classic style inflator with “new" style inflator
Replace 19’’ corrugated hose with 16’’ hose

So, you can see I “DIR”d them right up.

Scott

[Joshua Smith]

Good critique. One question, though: I have never understood the reason for removing the little ball thingie on the rear dump. What's up with that? I never use the rear dump anyway, but if I did, I'd never be able to find the little bit of string that activates it with gloves on.......

[Paulicarp]

Thank you, Scott. Very helpful.

[Paulicarp]

Yeah, it's no secret... I DO love Deep Sea Supply (DSS) gear!! Many folks here do and sometimes it looks like DSS sponsored the dive when we've got 8-10 DSS rigs all lined up in a row.

OK Sounder, I'll bite- What is it you like about DSS in general? (and please don't say 'the commission on the sale')

What do you like about the wings compared to Halcyon and OMS?

What do you like about the DSS harness system compared to the others like Halcyon, Dive Rite, OMS, and ???

One of the things that seemed to make sense to me about the OMS IQ pack is that I can start without the backplate and other extras for now, and buy them as I progress to doubles, stage bottles, etc later on. At what point in my advancement will this system become a limitation?

[vbcoachchris]

Good critique. One question, though: I have never understood the reason for removing the little ball thingie on the rear dump. What's up with that? I never use the rear dump anyway, but if I did, I'd never be able to find the little bit of string that activates it with gloves on.......

It can get trapped. I actually had it caught between my body and the waist strap. I could not figure out why I could not keep air in the darn thing. A good head to toe check would have caught it, but since did it happen I just get rid of it. It is only there in the first place to make finding the string easier. I have no issue finding the string. Just make an “ok” around the OPV and then close your hand. The string will ALWAYS be in your grasp. It’s just another situation where the cost / harm ratio needs to be considered.

Scott

[Joshua Smith]

Good critique. One question, though: I have never understood the reason for removing the little ball thingie on the rear dump. What's up with that? I never use the rear dump anyway, but if I did, I'd never be able to find the little bit of string that activates it with gloves on.......

It can get trapped. I actually had it caught between my body and the waist strap. I could not figure out why I could not keep air in the darn thing. A good head to toe check would have caught it, but since did it happen I just get rid of it. It is only there in the first place to make finding the string easier. I have no issue finding the string. Just make an “ok” around the OPV and then close your hand. The string will ALWAYS be in your grasp. It’s just another situation where the cost / harm ratio needs to be considered.

Scott

*Snap*

I knew that, and forgot it. Gettin' old.

Interesting, to me, anyway. Not that long ago, I would have snorted at that explanation and called it ridiculous. But I happen to know that that very thing was the primary cause of a fatality last year- it was a guy on a rebreather, so the rebreather got blamed, naturally. From emailing with one of the guys who found the body, I found out that the little ball was wrapped around a D ring when they found him. He was using his dil tank for wing inflation, like almost everyone does, and couldn't stay inflated on the surface, exhausted his dil, sank like a rock, and to top it off, hadn't turned on his argon bottle......

I might just go home and take the little ball off of my wing tonight. They work good on the end of a reel, anyway.