Open Water training standards-split from "fatality at Sund Rock"

[LCF]

Dammit, Dammit, Dammit, this just shouldn't happen! It is utterly tragic to lose someone because of an out of gas emergency and panic. And Peter is going through his IDC, and was specifically and emphatically told yesterday that he CANNOT teach gas management to OW students, or even discuss SAC rates. I'm sitting at my keyboard, so angry I could spit.

[FlyinV]

Terrible :(
Perhaps more could be said about checking your gauge on a regular basis in Open water class.
I wonder if both divers were new? It appears neither knew how little air they had left.

I am new but I am a nut about checking it every couple of minutes.

[ljjames]

We've been teaching SAC rates and gas management to OW students for years in the NAUI program (the only one i know). It's a requirement last time I checked my standards. I will look at my boyfriends OW manual to confirm when I get home, but I think it's still in the basic curriculum.

Dammit, Dammit, Dammit, this just shouldn't happen! It is utterly tragic to lose someone because of an out of gas emergency and panic. And Peter is going through his IDC, and was specifically and emphatically told yesterday that he CANNOT teach gas management to OW students, or even discuss SAC rates. I'm sitting at my keyboard, so angry I could spit.

[LCF]

I'm sorry, but I won't take back a word of it.

I'm not being disrespectful of the diver who died. I mourn her loss, more than is reasonable, considering I never met her. The people I am angry with are the people who trained her, because I think information that keeps people safe is not being taught, and apparently, at least in one agency, isn't being taught because the agency FORBIDS it.

Jake's death probably wasn't preventable. This one was.

[BDub]

I'm sorry, but I won't take back a word of it.

I'm not being disrespectful of the diver who died. I mourn her loss, more than is reasonable, considering I never met her. The people I am angry with are the people who trained her, because I think information that keeps people safe is not being taught, and apparently, at least in one agency, isn't being taught because the agency FORBIDS it.

Jake's death probably wasn't preventable. This one was.

Lynne, is Peter continuing with the training?

[ljjames]

Mods, can we split this thread?

I think the discussion of what is and isn't taught in OW classes is a very valid discussion. I will ask my friends and co-instructors one who holds both NAUI and PADI instructor cards and one who is an IT for PADI what their understanding with regards to teaching SAC and gas management to basic students is. Somehow I have to hope it is a misunderstanding about what they thought he wanted to teach. All OW classes to my knowledge learn the most basic of gas management. The issue is retention and understanding. It really matters WHEN it is taught in the class. If it's taught too soon, then it holds no real meaning and therefor isn't 'learned' and might as well not be taught.

This is a profoundly valuable discussion and we have enough instructors on this board from different agencies to weight in. As I have said (I think on this board even) if there really ARE things that need to be changed in the way classes are taught, the only way it will happen is if we as a community (divers) get together and MAKE change. If you want to change something then get involved, don't just pontificate on your local board. (not directed at you lynne, directed at ALL of us, myself included)

[Paulicarp]

Mods, can we split this thread?

we need to discuss what we can learn from this in another thread

[Joshua Smith]

Split. OK, a few ground rules: Rail away, but don't let it get personal. This topic has confounded me since my OW instructor refused to teach me about tank volume and SAC rates.









(Gee, I managed to split a topic without dumping everyone's posts, unlike other forums. It sure was difficult, and I can certainly see why someone could do that by accident. I had to click buttons and check boxes and stuff. Very technical.)

[Edge]

I'm really happy to see everyone concerned about the instruction of gas management. I am, however, just as concerned about all divers being able to self rescue. It is just too unfortunate to have a diver make it to the surface, only to have a fatality be the outcome. Many divers who struggle on the surface say it never crossed their minds to drop weights. Orally inflating the wing/BC is also commonly overlooked.

I personally orally inflate my wing prior to every dive. Many of the skills that could save our lives take NO extra time to practice, so why not?

[Sounder]

I'm really happy to see everyone concerned about the instruction of gas management. I am, however, just as concerned about all divers being able to self rescue. It is just too unfortunate to have a diver make it to the surface, only to have a fatality be the outcome. Many divers who struggle on the surface say it never crossed their minds to drop weights. Orally inflating the wing/BC is also commonly overlooked.

I personally orally inflate my wing prior to every dive. Many of the skills that could save our lives take NO extra time to practice, so why not?

These are both great points. Beyond the GM issue, there were issues on the surface too.

[Penopolypants]

(Gee, I managed to split a topic without dumping everyone's posts, unlike other forums. It sure was difficult, and I can certainly see why someone could do that by accident. I had to click buttons and check boxes and stuff. Very technical.)

I wasn't taught how to calculate my SAC or anything like that, but I was taught a version of the rule of thirds by my (PADI) open water instructor. Take your available air, subtract 500 psi, use a third of the rest to get where you're going, a third to hang out, and a third to get back.

Lynne or Peter, what definition of "gas management" are they specifically forbidding?

[girldiver]

I'm a PADI Instructor (and get very frustrated by the "apology" that seems to have to accompany that...).

While we cannot teach the Gas Management class, like Bob has put together...we can (or at least I do...and if it's wrong...report me...) teach students to watch their gauges.

When I was in my OW class...we swam around and at some point the instructor asked us what our air pressure was. Four dives...and on each dive...that was the first (and only) time I looked at my gauge. I'm not sure at what point in my early diving I decided to be responsible for my own gauges...but I know it wasn't in Open Water. Scary...

My students are given vivid examples in class of real life (uh...death) incidents that could have been avoided if all students were taught to look at their gauges. I keep it light...but the point is driven home. I repeat, over and over, "if you learn nothing else from my class...you must know that air is important underwater."

On their OW dives, when I ask them how much air they have...they aren't allowed to look at their gauge. They should know within a couple hundred pounds where they are, (they should have been checking throughout the dive...)as THEY are the ones ultimately responsible for checking their air. If they forget on the first dive to watch their air...the apres dive "pep talk" assures that the next three dives they will be spot on with knowing how much air they have in their tank.

With PADI we are not allowed to teach beyond the "scope" of the material. However, teaching students that air is important underwater I think is well within the scope of what they should be learning in their Open Water class. And if I was to be accused of teaching beyond the scope, I'd be happy to find another agency to certify under.

[Paulicarp]

I will ask my friends and co-instructors one who holds both NAUI and PADI instructor cards and one who is an IT for PADI what their understanding with regards to teaching SAC and gas management to basic students is. Somehow I have to hope it is a misunderstanding about what they thought he wanted to teach. All OW classes to my knowledge learn the most basic of gas management. The issue is retention and understanding. It really matters WHEN it is taught in the class. If it's taught too soon, then it holds no real meaning and therefor isn't 'learned' and might as well not be taught.

I'm interested in knowing if there is any cross-agency agreement on proceedure for situational awareness (gas management being primary). In the small bit of study that I've done, I've learned the basic information that one needs to know in order to manage gas on a very basic level, but I've not come across a "proceedure" that forces me into a pattern of implementing that information on a routine basis throughout a dive.

The rule of thirds is fine as a rule of thumb, but it only works if you actually watch your guages and consumption goes as planned. "Check your gas every couple of minutes" or "dive until your computer alarm goes off" is not enough of a proceedure. Personally, I know I'm not interested in going down there just to look at guages, and once I get focused on what I am interested in, chances are that half an hour seems like "a couple of minutes."

When I was taught how to fly an airplane, it was drilled into me that I had to constantly scan the flight deck left to right, top to bottom, front to back. I could stop and do another task, but when that task is under control, resume situational awareness scans. The proceedure itself became part of how one does the activity, and so situational awareness is implicit.

Is OW being taught in a way that guantees situational awareness?

[gcbryan]

I'm not quite sure what the topic of this post is. Not being allowed to teach Gas Management as self defined in a NAUI class isn't the reason people are dying.

In this particular case it may be that there weren't enough DM's per student. I'm sure people are taught to check their gauges and to not panic but that doesn't mean that it's never going to happen. The real problem is just that classes are too short. Four dives and you're on your own is the real problem.

Gas Management is great once you can dive and chew gum at the same time but wasn't the problem in the latest case. No matter how lax the standards (if they are lax) I'm sure check your gauges often, drop your weightbelt, and orally inflate were taught. If you have little enough actual time in the water it doesn't matter what you were taught if something happens and you panic.

Some things I never can understand and one of them is running out of air and having to be taught that you shouldn't run out of air. When I first started diving that's all I could think of...don't run out of air, check gauge...I didn't have time to do much else. I never understand how you can do something as unnatural as breathing underwater and have to be told to check your air.

(Edit:my mistake in thinking this occurred during a class)

[DiverDown]

Some things I never can understand and one of them is running out of air and having to be taught that you shouldn't run out of air. When I first started diving that's all I could think of...don't run out of air, check gauge...I didn't have time to do much else. I never understand how you can do something as unnatural as breathing underwater and have to be told to check your air.

Good point, I never took a gas managment class. I was always taught the rule of thirds. One thing that always stuck in head was when my instructor was asked (have you ever run out of air)? His reply was, NO I have never run out of gas on the freeway either! I always liked that point it made perfect sence to me.

As far as agency training go's I dont know whats better? Agencys obviously want new divers to support the dive industry. Some are more invovled (at the OW level) than others. Some just want to push Con-Ed or as better stated Put Another Dollar In. Knowing now what I didnt know then is a good example. I took my OW from a great instructor I was taught PADI standards and learned in two weeks. I didnt feel that comfortable, so I took more classes. Got better took more classes, so on and so on. Do I regret it? No would I do it differantly? No, if classes were gonna cost me severeal hundred dollars. Then several thousand dollars in gear and weeks or months of training. No way I would have taken the leap into scuba.

[Nwbrewer]

My students are given vivid examples in class of real life (uh...death) incidents that could have been avoided if all students were taught to look at their gauges. I keep it light...but the point is driven home. I repeat, over and over, "if you learn nothing else from my class...you must know that air is important underwater."
.......
With PADI we are not allowed to teach beyond the "scope" of the material. However, teaching students that air is important underwater I think is well within the scope of what they should be learning in their Open Water class. And if I was to be accused of teaching beyond the scope, I'd be happy to find another agency to certify under.

I had the same reaction as Lynne when I read the article in the other thread. Incidents like that don't have to happen.

I think Lynne's point, and mine, is that this is half of the equation. Knowing how much gas you have is part of it, but knowing how much gas you have is of very little use if you don't know how much gas you NEED.

I'm PADI OW certified. We were taught very little beyond "Back to the surface with 500psi". Great. No how do I do that? I can check my gauge constantly. I can know my pressure down to the nearest 50psi. So what? How much do I need to get back to the surface? What about my buddy? Will I have enough to get him there? In my mind this is stuff that would have been GREAT to know in my OW class. Having to work through calculating RMV and Rock bottom numbers probably would have driven a lot of things home.

This has been hashed out many times here and elsewhere. Last time someone brought up the fact that they didn't think that this needed to be taught because over time you develop a "feel" for how much gas you need and that working the numbers was a waste of time. That's probably a fair statement, but how do you keep people safe in between OW class and a hundred + dives where they start to get a "feel" for their gas consumption?

GM is a tool in the tool box, and in my opinion an important one. It doesn't even have to be really math intensive. Even a good set of rules of thumb for newer divers would be an improvement. Work out a RB table for two divers with a panic RMV of 1.0 each. Notice any patterns in the table? Seems like something like at 60' your RB is X. On an al80 subtract 200psi for every 10' shallower or something could be taught. If you can figure out the RDP you can figure that out.

The fact is GM math is not that hard. Provide students the tools to do dives safely. Somebody in the other thread mentioned doing something to change it. I do. Everyone I talk to who's thinking of getting OW certified I point away from classes where essential (in my opinion) safety information is verboten. Maybe institutional peer pressure will change this mindset that it's "too hard" to be taught in OW class. Cindy, you mentioned you feel like you have to apologize when saying your a PADI instructor. Maybe you should work on trying to change that.

Jake

[LCF]

Jeanna, that's a great point -- After all, running out of gas didn't kill this woman. Panic did. Which brings up a couple more points . . . People really should spend the time to familiarize themselves with the critical parts of their buddy's gear: Where are weights, and how can they be removed, and how does your inflator work, and such-like. (I got stuck in the water once with somebody who had colored PLATES instead of buttons on his inflator -- I had no clue which one was which.) And we should all practice things like oral inflation. One of Peter's DM instructors simply makes it a practice to orally inflate his BC when he surfaces at the end of every dive, thus both keeping the skill fresh, and building the reflex response to orally inflate when surfacing.

Additional information I got last night suggests that this diver probably had enough experience to have known that she would be likely to be getting low on gas. I wonder if narcosis was playing any role? (I don't know how deep they were.)

Pauli, I wasn't taught any kind of routine sequence, but I was taught to check my gauge every five minutes. In a number of my classes, the instructor would ask us to debrief the dive by depth and time: "At 7 minutes and in 20 feet of water, Kirk lost his mask . . ." This helped me build the habit of frequently checking my dive time, and if you check your time constantly, it's easy to remember that at 5, 10, 15 etc., you should check your gauge.

[CaptnJack]

I wonder if she embolized and that's one reason why her weights weren't dropped and BC wasn't inflated. There was just too much for her buddy to do so he (?) in his own panic ended up dropping a heavy, non-responsive diver on the surface. If they did a direct ascent I am not sure why her BC didn't have at least some gas in it (volumetrically more than when she left the bottom at least). So overweighting is also plausible. Running out of gas was sad, but its not the only thing that possibly or even probably happened. I don't know the exact chain of events but those are some questions that come to mind. Most incident chains have several places where the can be broken; I'm fairly confident this one did as well even after she went OOA.

I'm appalled that PADI forbids teaching beyond their minimum standards. That would be the only school, university, training program in history that intentionally limits their student's knowledge to the "book" in lieu of what individual instructors might add/supplement.

[LCF]

Yes, Richard, I agree; almost any accident has a whole series of things that, had they been different, the outcome might not have been the same. And the reason I went ballistic last night here is that the only possible positive thing about a death is to look at what can be changed to avoid having it happen again.

In medicine, we have a Mortality and Morbidity conference, where deaths and complications are reviewed, and there is frank (sometimes painfully so) and open discussion of what went wrong and what should be done differently. Unfortunately, in many scuba deaths, we don't ever get enough information to do that in a useful way. But in this case, we have quite a bit. Since we can't change the fact that someone died, I think it's constructive to try to think about ways to avoid having somebody get in a similar situation in the future. Better gas-related education, more frequent practice of emergency skills, perhaps a more thorough buddy check . . . All of these seem pertinent here.

A lot of new divers join up on this board, and I think it's useful for them to read this kind of accident analysis and get the warnings about things they might not have thought to practice or to consider.

[Tom Nic]

I'm appalled that PADI forbids teaching beyond their minimum standards. That would be the only school, university, training program in history that intentionally limits their student's knowledge to the "book" in lieu of what individual instructors might add/supplement.

Me too.

How much you wanna bet it is an insurance issue that is legal issues driven?

[CaptnJack]

I'm appalled that PADI forbids teaching beyond their minimum standards. That would be the only school, university, training program in history that intentionally limits their student's knowledge to the "book" in lieu of what individual instructors might add/supplement.

Me too.

How much you wanna bet it is an insurance issue that is legal issues driven?

Or maybe they are saving material for later classes?

[CaptnJack]

Yes, Richard, I agree; almost any accident has a whole series of things that, had they been different, the outcome might not have been the same. And the reason I went ballistic last night here is that the only possible positive thing about a death is to look at what can be changed to avoid having it happen again.

In medicine, we have a Mortality and Morbidity conference, where deaths and complications are reviewed, and there is frank (sometimes painfully so) and open discussion of what went wrong and what should be done differently. Unfortunately, in many scuba deaths, we don't ever get enough information to do that in a useful way. But in this case, we have quite a bit. Since we can't change the fact that someone died, I think it's constructive to try to think about ways to avoid having somebody get in a similar situation in the future. Better gas-related education, more frequent practice of emergency skills, perhaps a more thorough buddy check . . . All of these seem pertinent here.

A lot of new divers join up on this board, and I think it's useful for them to read this kind of accident analysis and get the warnings about things they might not have thought to practice or to consider.

If that's how you are approaching this, then a proper weight check is imperative. In OW I was taught a pack of lies about floating eye level with a full tank

I can't see how anyone can ascend from depth, with an empty tank, and not have enough bouyancy to float on the surface (unless she dumped every last drop of BC gas on the ascent to avoid coming up to fast). If she did dump BC gas on the ascent, then this is Ben Girard's death redux and a million times sadder. Cause if there's one thing to learn from that 2005(?) accident its when you are desperately low on gas do not swim up slope in an effort to make a slow ascent! Beat feet for the surface. Bent is a trivial issue compared to drowned.

Overweighting is really common, proper weight checks (barely able to sink with an empty tank) are not taught by some instructors/agencies. Overweighting creates problems during ordinary dives, and contributes significantly to accident chains on dives gone bad.

[Joshua Smith]

I'm not quite sure what the topic of this post is. Not being allowed to teach Gas Management as self defined in a NAUI class isn't the reason people are dying.

In this particular case it may be that there weren't enough DM's per student. I'm sure people are taught to check their gauges and to not panic but that doesn't mean that it's never going to happen. The real problem is just that classes are too short. Four dives and you're on your own is the real problem.

Gas Management is great once you can dive and chew gum at the same time but wasn't the problem in the latest case. No matter how lax the standards (if they are lax) I'm sure check your gauges often, drop your weightbelt, and orally inflate were taught. If you have little enough actual time in the water it doesn't matter what you were taught if something happens and you panic.

Some things I never can understand and one of them is running out of air and having to be taught that you shouldn't run out of air. When I first started diving that's all I could think of...don't run out of air, check gauge...I didn't have time to do much else. I never understand how you can do something as unnatural as breathing underwater and have to be told to check your air.

Good post, Grey. You bring up some interesting points. I went through the PADI training, up to Rescue Diver, before I started taking technical classes. I WAS taught to check my guages often, orally inflate, and drop weights. I still believe that at least some rudimentary version of gas management should be taught at the OW level, but at the same time, if an individual can't manage the other stuff, I wonder how much good gas management will do?

[girldiver]

I agree that four dives and "you're certified" is too short. If I had my own training agency...people would be allowed to get their certification at dive 25, they would have gotten their OW, AOW and Rescue out of the way...and any panic issues would have surfaced under the supervision of an instructor. They would also have the same number of hours (at least...) of class time...and more pool time.

However, in a market that sells classes for $99...it's hard to compete with a $999 program effectively.

Panic is definitely the final factor that takes the diver out. And sometimes the diver is aware they are panicky...sometimes they deny it. Panic has no place underwater.

[Tom Nic]

I'm appalled that PADI forbids teaching beyond their minimum standards. That would be the only school, university, training program in history that intentionally limits their student's knowledge to the "book" in lieu of what individual instructors might add/supplement.

Me too.

How much you wanna bet it is an insurance issue that is legal issues driven?

Or maybe they are saving material for later classes?

Nope. I've taken all the PADI training offered (with the exception of a specialty or three) through half way done with my DM. No saving of that material for later classes is involved. It is TOTALLY fear of / protecting themselves from lawsuits. Strict standardization of training gives them that result. If someone veers and screws up it's on the instructor not the agency. There is, of course, value in standardization... but...

I'm not quite sure what the topic of this post is. Not being allowed to teach Gas Management as self defined in a NAUI class isn't the reason people are dying.

Gas Management is great once you can dive and chew gum at the same time but wasn't the problem in the latest case. No matter how lax the standards (if they are lax) I'm sure check your gauges often, drop your weightbelt, and orally inflate were taught. If you have little enough actual time in the water it doesn't matter what you were taught if something happens and you panic.

Good post, Grey. You bring up some interesting points. I went through the PADI training, up to Rescue Diver, before I started taking technical classes. I WAS taught to check my guages often, orally inflate, and drop weights. I still believe that at least some rudimentary version of gas management should be taught at the OW level, but at the same time, if an individual can't manage the other stuff, I wonder how much good gas management will do?

Me too. Agreed and Agreed.