Northwest Dive Club

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebreath ... ident.html

I hate to hear about any diver fatality, but since this is the first one on the particular CCR I dive, it kind of hits home. As usual, we will probably never know what really happened.

RIP, Gene White.

Yeah....I've been following that one.

Some odd things about it....the empty dil tank....the missing AL 80 bail-out bottle....

Like you said, we'll never know.

The other interesting one is the CCR diver that just disappeared and is "missing at sea". I've seen no mention of the unit he dives, though.

- John

I searched through the deceased's posts on Deco stop. It seems he had only been diving his CCR since last October. That's only 7 months, and they usually don't dive much over the winter on the East coast. I think it's safe to say he didn't have a whole lot of time on his Meg.....and he was solo diving. Personally, I have no problem with OC solo diving, but I won't do it on CCR.

And how in the heck could someone lose a bailout bottle, anyway?

Holy Crap.

I just realized that I had been corresponding with this guy on Rebreather World a fair bit over the last 6 months. He was supposed to come out here and take CCR trimix w/ Mel this summer. We were going to try and hook up for a dive.
Oh, man, this feels weird.

I'm sure if we put our feeble little Celtic minds to it, we could come up wth all sorts of fanciful scenarios for the entire dive.....but I've always felt that such speculation is worthless.

I'm with you on the CCR solo diving issue. I've never had any problem whatsoever diving solo on open-circuit, in point of fact I often prefer it, but with a CCR I'm strictly a buddy diver.

- John

John Rawlings wrote:I'm sure if we put our feeble little Celtic minds to it, we could come up wth all sorts of fanciful scenarios for the entire dive.....but I've always felt that such speculation is worthless.

You are absolutely correct. I didn't intend to start a blamestorm of speculation.

Unfortunately from what I read on TDS http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38132 there probably was a second CCR diver fatality last weekend. Reading of a diver fatality on one of the boards every couple of weeks is getting pretty old. I know that I am careful (Thanks for the gas planning workshop Chris) but I bet they were too. Stay safe folks.

RIP.

John Rawlings wrote:The other interesting one is the CCR diver that just disappeared and is "missing at sea". I've seen no mention of the unit he dives, though.

- John

There are new reports that the Coast Guard just recovered his body. He went by "USSMEG" on the tech boards- I've been reading his posts for years. Bad weekend for the CCR community. Please be careful, everyone.

Joshua Smith wrote:

John Rawlings wrote:The other interesting one is the CCR diver that just disappeared and is "missing at sea". I've seen no mention of the unit he dives, though.

- John

There are new reports that the Coast Guard just recovered his body. He went by "USSMEG" on the tech boards- I've been reading his posts for years. Bad weekend for the CCR community. Please be careful, everyone.

Oh, man....I just looked him up on RBW by his "board name". I hadn't "put two and two together" and hadn't realized it until right this minute, but I've MET that guy! He was on the RBW staff.

Terrible....I was hoping that they'd find him floating around out there cold and dehydrated but alive.

- John

John Rawlings wrote:I'm with you on the CCR solo diving issue. I've never had any problem whatsoever diving solo on open-circuit, in point of fact I often prefer it, but with a CCR I'm strictly a buddy diver.

forgive my CCR ignorance, but why is solo ok on OC, but not CCR?

spatman wrote:

John Rawlings wrote:I'm with you on the CCR solo diving issue. I've never had any problem whatsoever diving solo on open-circuit, in point of fact I often prefer it, but with a CCR I'm strictly a buddy diver.

forgive my CCR ignorance, but why is solo ok on OC, but not CCR?

Well, I know of at least one guy who is still alive because his buddy saw him pass out on his CCR at the start of a dive. I just consider it bad juju to solo on CCR. If you're breathing off a tank of compressed gas, that gas mix is "stable", and doesn't change composition during a dive. The CCR loop is dynamic, and ever changing. While I consider CCRs "safe", there are many caveats to add. They're safe IF you know what you're doing. They're safe IF you dive with a competent buddy, and so on. It's worth noting that in both of this weekend's fatalities, the divers were solo. It's at least possible that an alert buddy could have saved them.

spatman wrote:

John Rawlings wrote:I'm with you on the CCR solo diving issue. I've never had any problem whatsoever diving solo on open-circuit, in point of fact I often prefer it, but with a CCR I'm strictly a buddy diver.

forgive my CCR ignorance, but why is solo ok on OC, but not CCR?

Most folks would say that neither is OK.

However, whereas solo diving is definitely more dangerous than buddy diving, on OC if something malfunctions you can bail-out to a slung bottle, (if you carry one, which I always do on solo dives). With a CCR it's possible to have a malfunction and never even be aware of it until it's too late to respond....you can become impaired or simply just "check out". This is why, as is driven in to you in initial CCR training, the first response to an "odd feeling" is to bail out to OC.

Many, including me, feel that manual CCRs, such as the COPIS Meg and the KISS units, are inherently safer than the electronic units because they are "user-driven" and the diver is forced to monitor his PO2 and gas levels. However, like ALL equipment of any kind and anywhere, they are not perfect and things can go wrong.

Josh - if you'd like this split off, feel free to do so....

- John

John Rawlings wrote:Josh - if you'd like this split off, feel free to do so....

- John

I'm OK with it as it stands.

Like you said, John- on OC, you can always bail out to a slung bottle....but the same is true for CCR. It's the insidious nature of CCRs that they can "ambush" you. If you are paying attention to the rig- before, during, and after the dive, you should be on top of a problem almost before it happens. But if your attention wanders for too long, you may not be aware that there is a problem until it's too late. Whereas on OC, you're most likely to know something's wrong- unless you're one of those people that forgets to check your tank pressure until it gets hard to breathe.

Joshua Smith wrote: It's the insidious nature of CCRs that they can "ambush" you. If you are paying attention to the rig- before, during, and after the dive, you should be on top of a problem almost before it happens. But if your attention wanders for too long, you may not be aware that there is a problem until it's too late. Whereas on OC, you're most likely to know something's wrong- unless you're one of those people that forgets to check your tank pressure until it gets hard to breathe.

Yeah....when I first met you at Calvin's office I still remember the look on your face when you looked at my CCR and saw the words "WARNING - THIS DEVICE IS CAPABLE OF KILLING YOU WITHOUT WARNING!" imprinted in capital letters on its top cap! At first you thought it was kind of funny...then you thought about it a bit and the smile sorta disappeared! If I remember correctly, you took a photo of it and used it as your avatar for a while!

- John

John Rawlings wrote:

Joshua Smith wrote: It's the insidious nature of CCRs that they can "ambush" you. If you are paying attention to the rig- before, during, and after the dive, you should be on top of a problem almost before it happens. But if your attention wanders for too long, you may not be aware that there is a problem until it's too late. Whereas on OC, you're most likely to know something's wrong- unless you're one of those people that forgets to check your tank pressure until it gets hard to breathe.

Yeah....when I first met you at Calvin's office I still remember the look on your face when you looked at my CCR and saw the words "WARNING - THIS DEVICE IS CAPABLE OF KILLING YOU WITHOUT WARNING!" imprinted in capital letters on its top cap! At first you thought it was kind of funny...then you thought about it a bit and the smile sorta disappeared! If I remember correctly, you took a photo of it and used it as your avatar for a while!

- John

All true, my friend.

I want to clarify that, as troubling as these deaths are, I'm still a true believer in the use of CCRs for deep, technical, and/ or exploration dives. Their use in "recreational" diving is debatable, but I choose not to debate it. I bought mine for deep diving.

Thanks for starting the post Josh. I hear you, it's sad to hear about any fatality but hits home especially when it's the unit you own and dive. With all the focus on mCCR's over the last year or two and the lack of fatalities, I do think it's valuable to emphasize that diving on any kind of unit comes with it's risks and that none of us can afford to take safety for granted, though I'm not saying it was in this case. I agree with John, there is no point in speculating about this particular dive/diver. I try to approach every fatality as a reminder to me to double up my efforts to reduce risk as much as I can and now that I have an 11 week old daughter, I have a whole new appreciation for this. I'm still on the fence about solo diving CCR's, we just lack the outcome studies to show us what the effect of a buddy has on risk. I can see where a buddy can give a false sense of security, which may offset the benefit. I also imagine the chances of being resuscitated once unconscious is amazingly low on OC or CCR, buddy or no buddy. I personally found solo OC way more harrowing as the gas volume was much more limited. but that said, we really don't have much to go on.

A concern that has come up for me periodically is that the emphasis on mCCR's and their low fatality rates may inadvertently lead some people to let down their guard and get in trouble on them with a false sense of confidence. We all need to resist the mindset that any rebreather is "safe" and not let down our guard. If it can one day be proven that mCCR's are "safer", it will likely be due mostly to the vigilant mindset they impart... staying vigilant is the key, IMHO, on any rebreather! which, as obvious as it is to us, can never be said enough.

my condolences to the family and friends of the diver.

george

Gill Envy wrote:Thanks for starting the post Josh. I hear you, it's sad to hear about any fatality but hits home especially when it's the unit you own and dive. With all the focus on mCCR's over the last year or two and the lack of fatalities, I do think it's valuable to emphasize that diving on any kind of unit comes with it's risks and that none of us can afford to take safety for granted, though I'm not saying it was in this case. I agree with John, there is no point in speculating about this particular dive/diver. I try to approach every fatality as a reminder to me to double up my efforts to reduce risk as much as I can and now that I have an 11 week old daughter, I have a whole new appreciation for this. I'm still on the fence about solo diving CCR's, we just lack the outcome studies to show us what the effect of a buddy has on risk. I can see where a buddy can give a false sense of security, which may offset the benefit. I also imagine the chances of being resuscitated once unconscious is amazingly low on OC or CCR, buddy or no buddy. I personally found solo OC way more harrowing as the gas volume was much more limited. but that said, we really don't have much to go on.

A concern that has come up for me periodically is that the emphasis on mCCR's and their low fatality rates may inadvertently lead some people to let down their guard and get in trouble on them with a false sense of confidence. We all need to resist the mindset that any rebreather is "safe" and not let down our guard. If it can one day be proven that mCCR's are "safer", it will likely be due mostly to the vigilant mindset they impart... staying vigilant is the key, IMHO, on any rebreather! which, as obvious as it is to us, can never be said enough.

my condolences to the family and friends of the diver.

george

Good post, George. Congratulations on the new daughter, as well!

I suspect that, as more and more divers go the mCCR path, we will see more mCCR fatalities. Just my intuition, and only time will tell.

As far as solo diving goes- any solo diving, be it CCR or OC- it's a personal decision. I just choose not to do it on my Meg.

Joshua Smith wrote:
Good post, George. Congratulations on the new daughter, as well!

I suspect that, as more and more divers go the mCCR path, we will see more mCCR fatalities. Just my intuition, and only time will tell.

As far as solo diving goes- any solo diving, be it CCR or OC- it's a personal decision. I just choose not to do it on my Meg.

Thanks Josh.

Certainly there will be more mCCR fatalities over time. I expect that with the surge in mCCR popularity that there may be an unintended consequence of an increase in fatality rate beyond the simple increase in users. It will be interesting to see if that levels out once any sense of overconfidence in the product subsides. as you say, only time will tell.

kind regards,
george

USSMEG was Paul Blanchette. For anyone who knew him, he was a very friendly guy. He knew his S#&T. This is a very sad week as we lost two of the family. Both Gene White and Paul Blanchette will be missed. May both of you rest in peace.
mel

scubagrunt wrote:USSMEG was Paul Blanchette. For anyone who knew him, he was a very friendly guy. He knew his S#&T. This is a very sad week as we lost two of the family. Both Gene White and Paul Blanchette will be missed. May both of you rest in peace.
mel

Hey, Mel.

I know who Paul was- he was part of the team that dove the Portland last year in 460 fsw, among other things. Yeah, he knew his S#1t. Gene White seemed like a good guy, too. Very sad.