Northwest Dive Club

I have now reached a diving cul-de-sac. I have to resign myself to the fact that I have to buy a computer. Hardly anybody uses the tables nowadays and it is becoming more awkward to dive without one with new divers who do not follow the tables at all because they solely rely on their computers.

My regular buddy has a Suunto Gekko and he is happy with it. I used it and one thing that I do not like about it very much is that I cannot see the display (?) at night and I have to shine my light on it. So I have been thinking to buy a Vyper. I have read in Scubaboard old posts that there is a Vyper 2 well I have the Suunto catalogue under my nose and I cannot see it. The Vyper (non air integrated) in the catalogue does not have the compass. Does it mean that this model is a Vyper 1?

In 2007 Charlie99 wrote on Scubaboard this about Suunto computers:

"My biggest complaint about Suunto computers is not the conservatism of the algorithm, but that the NDL bargraph goes back to green as soon as you go shallow, rather than continuing to show high N2 loading until you have offgassed. (This is because the Suunto bargraph is simply a graphical representation of NDL, and NDL goes high when shallow, even when you are heavily loaded.)"

I think I have a general idea of what he means but can somebody elaborate a bit about this? How this, let's say, 'discrepancy' will affect my diving?

Thanks

I can't comment on the vyper but with the Gekko you should be able to 'charge' the display with your light so you can read it. I am diving with a Gekko and like it.

sunnydude wrote:I can't comment on the vyper but with the Gekko you should be able to 'charge' the display with your light so you can read it. I am diving with a Gekko and like it.

Yes when I use my Buddy's computer that is what I do too.

Now it is not too much of a hassle because the lanyard of the light is long enough so I don't have to take the light off my wrist (I have a pistol grip light). But still I would like not to deal with that if I can help it.

Alot of us here haven't used a computer in years. I just have a digital gauge (bottom timer). I am quite comfortable multileveling a profile in my head and it seems to work for me. If you want to know more, maybe post in the DIR/UTD "tech" forum the "minimum deco" approach is most commonly utilized with us.

CaptnJack wrote:Alot of us here haven't used a computer in years. I just have a digital gauge (bottom timer). I am quite comfortable multileveling a profile in my head and it seems to work for me. If you want to know more, maybe post in the DIR/UTD "tech" forum the "minimum deco" approach is most commonly utilized with us.

Well this is pretty confusing to me who is just a recreational diver and does not have a lot of experience. I think I won't take up your suggestion because I fear I will get even more confused. Thanks anyway!

Tubesnout23 wrote:

CaptnJack wrote:Alot of us here haven't used a computer in years. I just have a digital gauge (bottom timer). I am quite comfortable multileveling a profile in my head and it seems to work for me. If you want to know more, maybe post in the DIR/UTD "tech" forum the "minimum deco" approach is most commonly utilized with us.

Well this is pretty confusing to me who is just a recreational diver and does not have a lot of experience. I think I won't take up your suggestion because I fear I will get even more confused. Thanks anyway!

Ummmm ok. Its not that difficult but I'm not pushy

As far as the bar on the vyper goes. Its an indication of how close you are to NDLs, a graphical representation of the NDL number (which is very large and central on the vyper). Its not an indication of how much nitrogen you may have onboard. This is my recollection from my own days of using mine in computer mode and Charlie's old post.

Realistically who really cares if you have lots or little residual nitrogen from earlier in the dive or earlier in the day. The salient value is how much longer can you "safely" stay at your current depth. I would ignore the graphical bar and keep track of the NDL time remaining. You'll see the number go up as you move shallower. Eventually it shows "---" or something like that around 25ft where the NDL time is essentially infinite.

You might compromise by getting a computer which can be switched to gauge mode if you choose at some point to go back to tables. That will give you both options. When I bought my computer I never thought I'd go back to tables, but I was wrong. There's nothing wrong with being able to do both. I have a vyper, by the way. My only complaint is that the most important info gets the least display space.

-Ben

FWIW, the "minimum deco" suggestion sounds complicated, but it's really quite simple and easy to learn and use... so don't be intimidated by it.

The key to using a computer is to know how to use it. Some computers are easier to use than others. Oceanic makes fairly easily operated computers for example. There is a full spectrum of options from the basic bottom-timer to the highest-end technical units. Some computers have a simulation mode which enables you to practice with them when you're not underwater (which is extremely helpful).

My best piece of advise is to always keep your tables in your head, keep aware of situational conditions, and not to come 100% focused on following exactly what your computer is telling you.

Tubesnout23 wrote:

CaptnJack wrote:Alot of us here haven't used a computer in years. I just have a digital gauge (bottom timer). I am quite comfortable multileveling a profile in my head and it seems to work for me. If you want to know more, maybe post in the DIR/UTD "tech" forum the "minimum deco" approach is most commonly utilized with us.

Well this is pretty confusing to me who is just a recreational diver and does not have a lot of experience. I think I won't take up your suggestion because I fear I will get even more confused. Thanks anyway!

Tubesnout, more information is rarely a bad thing. If you've been using tables, figuring out you pressure groups, RNT and all that for a while, learning to use Min deco is going to be easy. It's basically just diving tables, but simpler, and gives you more bottom time, because you're using average depth, not max depth. I'm a recreational diver too, and I'm just starting to work with using the Min deco strategy, but so far I like it, and it's pretty intuitive. If nothing else I recommend to anybody to learn a little about it, if nothing else to give you a mental check against what your computer is telling you.

That being said, I dive a Chochran EMC-16. I don't know much about the Suuntos. I like the Cochran for the backlight, the big display, and the fact that it never locks you out, no matter what it always gives you your depth time etc... oh yeah, and user changeable batteries.

Good luck on you purchase decision. I think I did about 3x as much computer shopping as anything else I bought.

Jake

There's been some good advice given.

I think the first thing you need to start with is how conservative or liberal you'd like your computer to be. I've been using my computer in gauge mode for years now, but back when I was diving computers, Oceanics were quite liberal and Suuntos were quite conservative. I don't know if that's changed. Some simple research should answer that question. So, I'd say start off with looking at computers who's degree of conservatism (or lack of), you're comfortable with.

Then, what kind of bells and whistles do you want? There's a wide range. The nice thing is, most of the computers by a given manufacturer use the same algorithm, they just have different amounts of bells and whistles.

Minimum Deco only requires a computer in gauge mode, which most computers have. Down the road, should you become interested in Min Deco, your computer will be fine.

As far as minimum deco goes, for the sake of addressing it...keep in mind that using minimum deco is a process. It's not a matter of waking up one day and proclaiming that you're going to use minimum deco from that point forward. It's a process of using your computer as a computer, but also using your brain. When you get to the point that your computer is no longer telling you anything you didn't already know, you're ready for gauge mode. Until then (if you ever even become interested in min deco), get the computer that most suits your needs and use your computer as a computer, as much or as little as you're comfortable with.

BDub wrote:As far as minimum deco goes, for the sake of addressing it...keep in mind that using minimum deco is a process. It's not a matter of waking up one day and proclaiming that you're going to use minimum deco from that point forward. It's a process of using your computer as a computer, but also using your brain. When you get to the point that your computer is no longer telling you anything you didn't already know, you're ready for gauge mode. Until then (if you ever even become interested in min deco), get the computer that most suits your needs and use your computer as a computer, as much or as little as you're comfortable with.

I have a suunto viper 1...I find at night it's a pain to press the button with dry gloves to backlight it. I mostly shine my light on it. I think I would be happy with a face that could be charged to glow.

Ron L.

BDub wrote:There's been some good advice given.

.... but back when I was diving computers, Oceanics were quite liberal and Suuntos were quite conservative. I don't know if that's changed....

Nope, hasn't changed. Raptor's Suunto computer will go into deco when my Oceanic will still shows time available for NDL.

Last Thursday my Oceanic showed a 50 minute si down to 60 fsw and Keith's Suunto showed about 2 hours......

BDub wrote:As far as minimum deco goes, for the sake of addressing it...keep in mind that using minimum deco is a process. It's not a matter of waking up one day and proclaiming that you're going to use minimum deco from that point forward. It's a process of using your computer as a computer, but also using your brain. When you get to the point that your computer is no longer telling you anything you didn't already know, you're ready for gauge mode. Until then (if you ever even become interested in min deco), get the computer that most suits your needs and use your computer as a computer, as much or as little as you're comfortable with.

Don't forget you can also go the other way. Use tables in the conventional mode but gradually start averaging instead of using max depth. Requires a digital gauge and suitable table, but not necessarily a computer.

Thanks folks for your comments. I know that I want to get a Suunto. I have to decide between a Vyper and a Gekko. Answering the following question hopefully will help me to make that decision:
Is the light really necessary?
Do I really want the option to download my dives on a computer?
Is that particular number on the display really so small that I cannot read it and how does that compare with the Gekko display?

Regarding the minimum-deco I am interested in learning about it, but right now I am already overloaded in trying to make a decision about the computer. If I add up the info about the minimum-deco I will put 'troppa carne sul fuoco' ('too much meat on the fire') and my brain, sorry I have never claimed to be a tech wizard/guru, won't be able to cope.

I will learn about it sometimes in the future.

Cheers

I am not sure what the price difference is, but I would go with the vyper. Mostly for the downloading and gauge mode capability moreso than the backlight. Resale is also probably better if you decide to change to something else later.

CaptnJack wrote:I am not sure what the price difference is, but I would go with the vyper. Mostly for the downloading and gauge mode capability moreso than the backlight. Resale is also probably better if you decide to change to something else later.

There is a free program out there that tricks the Suunto dive program into thinking the Gekko is a Viper so you can download. I have been using it and it works great.

The link is here http://home.gci.net/~liquidimagephoto/Suunto.htm

sunnydude wrote:

CaptnJack wrote:I am not sure what the price difference is, but I would go with the vyper. Mostly for the downloading and gauge mode capability moreso than the backlight. Resale is also probably better if you decide to change to something else later.

There is a free program out there that tricks the Suunto dive program into thinking the Gekko is a Viper so you can download. I have been using it and it works great.

The link is here http://home.gci.net/~liquidimagephoto/Suunto.htm

AH! Uuuuhhmmm! Interesting...'le vie del signore sono infinite!'(=God's ways are infinite!)

Thanks

cardiver wrote:Last Thursday my Oceanic showed a 50 minute si down to 60 fsw and Keith's Suunto showed about 2 hours......

Yes, I agree there is a considderable difference between Oceanic and Suunto. I dive the Suunto Cobra and personally, I like to be on the more conservative side of Deco.
But it is all a matter of preferrence. I like Suunto, but I'm not sure if I would buy another Cobra.

Maybe a Viper.

I had a very old AI Oceanic computer and I just switched it out for a Vyper. I probably have only about 30 dives on it, but it seems to be working OK for me. It has taken a little while to get used to the new display and new information on it. The factors behind my decision to buy it were: 1) I liked the more conservative algorithm of Sunto; 2) I do intend to transition to "min deco" aproach, so wanted guage mode; 2) Nitrox compatiblity; 3) download capability; 4) good reviews from other divers I know.

Regarding the min deco aproach. Even though I have pretty much always dove with a computer, I always ran the table numbers as back-up, so, as was mentioned earlier, min deco isn't too hard. I haven't switched over to guage mode yet, but I do make it a game to figure average my depth during diving and see how that compares to what the computer says at the end of the dive. I am now, pretty regularly getting to within 5-10 feet.

Now, regarding the download. I was able to download my dives the first time I tried. Since then, I have been having one heck of a time and haven't been able to get it to work. It doesn't recognize that the dive computer is hooked up. I haven't had much time to troubleshoot it, but has anyone else had this problem?

Try cleaning the contacts on the back with alcohol and a q-tip. My old vyper (now my wife's) has to be downloaded outside of the DSS boot. I don't totally understand why since its dry and contacts seem to be engaged. Computer just won't see it in the boot. So I have to remove it every once in awhile to do the downloads.

My Vytec is pretty finicky too. If it wont read clean the contacts, if it still doesn't repeat until it does