Liquivision X1

[Grateful Diver]

aaah, i was unaware. good to know.

edit: those are great prices! has anyone ever had cause to deal with them?

I insure my photography gear with them .... and my X1 ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Burntchef]

aaah, i was unaware. good to know.

edit: those are great prices! has anyone ever had cause to deal with them?

I insure my photography gear with them .... and my X1 ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

bob can you please start another thread about them and a link, very interested in it as a padding for homeowners. thanks

[Gill Envy]

Several members here have seen me toss demo units around Cove 2 parking lot, and others have seen them flung into the air at DEMA 08. The X1 is not fragile.

Soooo..... If you can throw it around, and not break it, and his falls off a shelf and breaks... wouldn't that insinuate that there was a flaw before the unit fell that could cause it to be damaged so easily?

This might be a little too high tech for me.

D(B)

yeah, I was thinking along the same lines. If the X1 is built tough, then dropping a few feet shouldn't be a bigy. What comes to mind is that perhaps the charging process makes it vulnerable to a stress fracture somehow (not much room for expansion if it's potted), making a minor fall a bigger deal if it happens while it's charging... that should still be warrantied, IMHO. For those of us who possibly see an X1 on our horizon, the way this is being handled by the manufacturer is a whet blanket.

[spatman]

Soooo..... If you can throw it around, and not break it, and his falls off a shelf and breaks... wouldn't that insinuate that there was a flaw before the unit fell that could cause it to be damaged so easily?

yeah, I was thinking along the same lines. If the X1 is built tough, then dropping a few feet shouldn't be a bigy.

this is all assuming that, in fact, his did acquire the damage just by falling a few feet. i'm not implying that kirby is intentionally lying about what happened, but it is possible that there are other circumstances surrounding the breakage that we, as internet commentators, are unaware of.

[defied]

Soooo..... If you can throw it around, and not break it, and his falls off a shelf and breaks... wouldn't that insinuate that there was a flaw before the unit fell that could cause it to be damaged so easily?

yeah, I was thinking along the same lines. If the X1 is built tough, then dropping a few feet shouldn't be a bigy.

this is all assuming that, in fact, his did acquire the damage just by falling a few feet. i'm not implying that kirby is intentionally lying about what happened, but it is possible that there are other circumstances surrounding the breakage that we, as internet commentators, are unaware of.

Well sure, but we are taking only from the information provided.

However, if the initial note sent to the manufacturer was "Fell of of shelf while charging. Fell 1 meter, and screen broke), and the manufacturer sees that the screen is in fact broken (aka, no bullet hole, or spear tip mark sticking out of it), then that's pretty much that. If a manufacturer were to find any way to prove that something more malicious occurred because they would rather not replace it, then that would be another minus. Purchasing a product for a company that presumes you did something worse than you report so they don't cover it is a no-no in my book. If the screen is broken on a device that's supposed to be able to be thrown around a parking lot, then replace it. Charge them a service fee, and a replacement cost, and call it good. That would make the customer happy, and possibly a repeat when they do accidentally run it over with their dive truck. 0]

D(B)

[Sounder]

Liquivision boasts some of the best customer service in the dive industry. When there is a warranty issue with one of our products, it is repaired or replaced immediately... and if it happens right before a big trip or something, we've sent out loaners or replacements before receiving the troubled unit to ensure the user had the gear they needed. There are numerous threads around the internet to this effect.

In this particular case, the computer was subjected to extreme mishandling and was broken as a result. The X1 has passed the "standard" for durability in our industry with flying colors (CE 13319). Additionally, I have personally abused prototypes beyond anything which could be even remotely considered "reasonable" and have never experienced an issue such as the unit in question had. The owner stated he found the unit on the desk but did not witness it falling. There is additional information, which was shared with us from the dealer at the time of return, which confirmed the conclusions our engineers reached when examining the unit - that a significant impact (much more than a 3' fall onto a wooden desk as was suggested) was required to cause the damage to the extent it was.

If you crash your car, is it the manufacturer's duty to replace it? If you break a large window in your house by throwing a chair through it, was the window faulty? If you hit your Rolex with a hammer, or throw it against a wall and it breaks, was the watch defective? If you drop a scuba tank off the back of your truck and break a first stage, should the regulator company replace it? The situation in this case is no different. The X1 is not designed to sustain an impact such that would have had to occur to cause this particular damage.

If you're hard on your gear, or if you have kids or pets etc. who could damage your gear while you're not there to prevent it, perhaps an insurance policy would be a good idea. I know my personal X1 is insured, as is my Cuda, and most of my other expensive gear. My car is also insured, as is my house (because if my child accidently burns it down, I doubt my builder is going to replace it under warranty), as is my boat, etc. If my car breaks down and it's covered under warranty, it'll be fixed... but if I smash it into a wall or drive it off a cliff, that's not Toyota's fault.

Liquivision offered the owner a one-time replacement option at an extremely reduced price in sympathy to his situation. This offer is still on the table should he want it.

[CaptnJack]

Nobody saw it fall anywhere then...

I'm with Calvin, the customer is always right

[John Rawlings]

I've been known to be pretty hard on my gear, and believe it or not I've busted a few things in my time....when that happens I get so angry at myself that I've been known to actually scare my wife, (who doesn't understand that my words are directed at myself!). :angry:

Just this past weekend Calvin watched in horror as I tipped my CCR on top of my VR3 computer on the tail-gate of my truck - fortunately, it's a VR3 and built like a tank....but my point is that "shit happens". Divers DO things to their gear....it's inevitable. Manufacturers go to great length to make their products as "diver-proof" as possible.

Next to many things used in tech diving, the X1 looks kinda weak and wimpy.....but it's NOT. I remember Liquivision's debut at DEMA when everyone pretty much had the same comment - "it looks like it'll break....". Well, the Liquivision staff proved us ALL wrong - they tossed those puppies around like rocks, threw them onto the floor and dashed them on concrete. The nay-sayers, myself amongst them, quickly shut the heck up.

I also work with professional engineers each and every day....trust me, they know the difference between a break caused by internal pressure and a break caused by an external force. If the breakage in this case was caused by the former, then I would hope that Liquivision would replace or repair the unit quickly and cheerfully. However, if the damage was caused by the latter....then it's time to suck it up, accept that something bad has happened to you (for whatever reason) that was not caused by the company and move on.

- John

[airsix]

I'm with Calvin, the customer is always right

I'm not saying this about Kirby, just about that principle in general.

You can't take that stance unconditionally or unscrupulous customers will rob you blind. If your business survives in that environment it will only be at the owner's sacrifice or by raising prices which is in essence requring honest customers to subsidize the dishonest.

The honest and fair recognize that good business is symbiotic ; with neither buyer or seller being taken advantage of. When you give one party unconditional power the relationship will become parasitic. Depending on which direction it goes either the customer or the business will disappear

[Tangfish]

I agree, airsix. One of my friends has actually been put on "probation" for returning too much stuff to Nordstrom's. I didn't even know that this was possible, but I was right there when they pulled up his file and he had returned or exchanged something like 5X what they had records of him purchasing (and he admitted wrongdoing to me, privately). There's always at least one person who will abuse any consumer-friendly policy a company makes.

That being said, I don't really know what's going on with this particular X1, not having seen the condition of it myself. Seems like both sides have vastly different versions of how the unit looks. I guess a current photo of said X1 would be worth 1000 words.

I'm with Calvin, the customer is always right

I'm not saying this about Kirby, just about that principle in general.

You can't take that stance unconditionally or unscrupulous customers will rob you blind. If your business survives in that environment it will only be at the owner's sacrifice or by raising prices which is in essence requring honest customers to subsidize the dishonest.

The honest and fair recognize that good business is symbiotic ; with neither buyer or seller being taken advantage of. When you give one party unconditional power the relationship will become parasitic. Depending on which direction it goes either the customer or the business will disappear

[defied]

If you crash your car, is it the manufacturer's duty to replace it? If you break a large window in your house by throwing a chair through it, was the window faulty? If you hit your Rolex with a hammer, or throw it against a wall and it breaks, was the watch defective? If you drop a scuba tank off the back of your truck and break a first stage, should the regulator company replace it? The situation in this case is no different. The X1 is not designed to sustain an impact such that would have had to occur to cause this particular damage.

Well if the thing that actually happened was a fall from 3 feet, then the above quote would be:

If you crash your car while doing 2mph into the back of a pinto, and it explodes, is it the manufacturer's duty to replace it? If you break a large window in your house by throwing a pencil through it, was the window faulty? If you hit your Rolex with a feather, or throw it against a soft pillow and it breaks, was the watch defective? If you carefully air up a valve, and break a first stage, should the regulator company replace it?

And hell yeah, it should be replaced.

However, if your engineers claim that the damage was done by a far greater force, then the guy must have been wrong about the fall height, or his dog chewing on it, or something, then sure deny away.

I'm just referencing my knowledge off of this post. Maybe the guy brought it public to make you provoke you in to bringing it public, and making you look like the bad guy, I dunno. He did succeed in bringing a level of shady out of you, in my opinion, and you countered that, and made me view him as slightly shady as well.

Thus, this topic has become pointless, should be privatized, and replaced by beer. Let's go get F$*ked up.

D(B)

[scottsax]

Let's go get F$*ked up.
D(B)

Best advice I've heard all day!

[CaptnJack]

There's always at least one person who will abuse any consumer-friendly policy a company makes.

Certainly. And in your probationary friend's case that was clearly abusive and they had a file of inappropriate returns to back up their conclusions. In that case I am suprised they didn't go further than mere "probation". On the other hand, you also don't push back on customers when they have only attempted to exchange or return a "defective" product once.

Agree that a picture of this X1 would probably tell 1000 words...

[Tangfish]

In that case I am suprised they didn't go further than mere "probation".

He immediately started having his little sister return his stuff. Shameless I tell you!

[CaptnJack]

In that case I am suprised they didn't go further than mere "probation".

He immediately started having his little sister return his stuff. Shameless I tell you!

The 5 pairs of jeans from JCPenny's!!

[Gill Envy]

Soooo..... If you can throw it around, and not break it, and his falls off a shelf and breaks... wouldn't that insinuate that there was a flaw before the unit fell that could cause it to be damaged so easily?

yeah, I was thinking along the same lines. If the X1 is built tough, then dropping a few feet shouldn't be a bigy.

this is all assuming that, in fact, his did acquire the damage just by falling a few feet. i'm not implying that kirby is intentionally lying about what happened, but it is possible that there are other circumstances surrounding the breakage that we, as internet commentators, are unaware of.

I would like a photo posted, that might help. I get leery when I hear there are other photos of similar cracks in units that were covered by warranty, that makes me wonder. In any case, if such a thing is so rare, I do think it's best for the manufacturer to err on the side of generous and cover it, not necessarily because it's the right thing to do, but simply because it's the right thing to do for business. This level of dive computer is extremely niche and being generous with customers in this high end market will pay off through word of mouth, as not doing so does the opposite.

[Sounder]

I'm not sure I know how else to explain this. A thermal crack is one with distinctive patterning, and no depression. A depression in the glass with underlying damage is not the same thing. If the unit fell 3' on a desk, physics would not allow the damage which was sustained. If somehow the unit was broken due to such a minor fall, it would have been replaced immediately... but this simply wasn't the case.

[Tangfish]

The 5 pairs of jeans from JCPenny's!!

Not far off, "designer" sunglasses off of Ebay!

[Gill Envy]

I'm not sure I know how else to explain this. A thermal crack is one with distinctive patterning, and no depression. A depression in the glass with underlying damage is not the same thing. If the unit fell 3' on a desk, physics would not allow the damage which was sustained. If somehow the unit was broken due to such a minor fall, it would have been replaced immediately... but this simply wasn't the case.

I hear you and still, it'a PR thing, IMHO. a quick google for cracking issues on the X1 came up with this thread with photos:http://www.rebreatherworld.com/liquivis ... on-x1.html. Within this thread are references to a single person seeing 3 X1s with this issue. X1 owners can apparently search posts of the x1 forum title ""Issues revolving around Screen Failures"" for more details. IMHO, it's better to just take care of the customer to help reassure us all that this issue is isolated. If Kirby were the only person with this issue, it would be another story, but it sounds like it's several to date and that alone is reason enough to gracefully cover the damage.

It may actually be a while before it's clear what is causing all the cracks... I've seen enough wacky things with dive computer screens to realize cause is sometimes very illusive.

g

[Joshua Smith]

I found one of these at a hotel I worked at once:

[Grateful Diver]

The 5 pairs of jeans from JCPenny's!!

Not far off, "designer" sunglasses off of Ebay!

Oy ... that goes a bit beyond shameless.

Ultimately the cost of that sort of "business" gets passed on to all the honest customers.

Your friend should be prosecuted ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Tangfish]

Oy ... that goes a bit beyond shameless.

Ultimately the cost of that sort of "business" gets passed on to all the honest customers.

Your friend should be prosecuted ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It started with him asking for "anything from Nordstrom" for Christmas/Birthday, then just returning stuff for $$ or other things he wanted after the fact. Then slowly morphed into really gaming the system. I've known a number of people who work at Nordstrom's. They're trained to take back ANY return, even if they *know* that it wasn't purchased there. I guess my buddy found out that there is a limitation to this policy, if you really, really, really push it like he did!

[Grateful Diver]

Oy ... that goes a bit beyond shameless.

Ultimately the cost of that sort of "business" gets passed on to all the honest customers.

Your friend should be prosecuted ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It started with him asking for "anything from Nordstrom" for Christmas/Birthday, then just returning stuff for $$ or other things he wanted after the fact. Then slowly morphed into really gaming the system. I've known a number of people who work at Nordstrom's. They're trained to take back ANY return, even if they *know* that it wasn't purchased there. I guess my buddy found out that there is a limitation to this policy, if you really, really, really push it like he did!

Sounds like he's got a future in the insurance industry ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[CaptnJack]

Sounds like he's got a future in the insurance industry ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Or as a lawyer

[Bric Martin]

I found one of these at a hotel I worked at once:

Hey.. aren't you that guy that dives with a radish tied around your waist?