Regs Options for AL40

[babs13]

I'm looking to purchase a reg for my pony. I want a high quality reg that breathes well. I'm thinking of doubles after another year or so [hoping to take intro to tech in a few months].

I currently have the Atomic M1 for 1st stage, primary and octo.

I'm looking at the Atomic M1 as an option, but don't want to be that spendy. However, it is a reg that I know and like. Alot of folks around here seem to use Apeks.

The Apeks XTX 100 or XTX 200 look awesome. Not sure about the XTX 50. Or the status models.

Since I'm also thinking in the long term and buying it right the first time (so I don't have to buy it twice or have to upgrade), I hope I can use and keep the reg on the pony, or have the option to move it to a doubles set up [then I'll have to buy another to match]. Thoughts?

[BDub]

I'm looking to purchase a reg for my pony. I want a high quality reg that breathes well. I'm thinking of doubles after another year or so [hoping to take intro to tech in a few months].

I currently have the Atomic M1 for 1st stage, primary and octo.

I'm looking at the Atomic M1 as an option, but don't want to be that spendy. However, it is a reg that I know and like. Alot of folks around here seem to use Apeks.

The Apeks XTX 100 or XTX 200 look awesome. Not sure about the XTX 50. Or the status models.

Since I'm also thinking in the long term and buying it right the first time (so I don't have to buy it twice or have to upgrade), I hope I can use and keep the reg on the pony, or have the option to move it to a doubles set up [then I'll have to buy another to match]. Thoughts?

I use an XTX50 (DST 1st stage) for a stage and deco reg. The swivel turret first stage works great for deco or pony bottle use as it can be stowed cleanly, but also routes well when in use.

[boydski]

I use Atomic M1's on my doubles and they are fantastic performers. On my many stage bottles, I have a combination of Atomic and Apex regulators. The Atomics work on a stage bottle, but the Apeks work better. The long body of the Atomic/Scubapro style of regulator tends to block access to the valve handle on the tank of a slung bottle more than the shorter body of the Apeks.

Your stage/deco regulators don't really have to be the world's best performing regulator (you'll typically use them at shallower depths), however, there is a benefit in having similar regulators on everything as the parts are then interchangable.

You might consider buying a regulator for your pony/stage bottle and just plan on keeping it with that bottle. When you move up to doubles, those M-1's are hard to beat! :biggrin:

[Sounder]

+1

I use Atomic primary regs and an Apeks or Scuba Pro deco regs. So long as it's a high-performance reg, you'll be fine. An Atomic Z2 would be a perfectly good deco reg.

The swivel turret on the 1st stage Brian mentioned is key too so the hose won't pull funny ways while you're on deco.

[CaptnJack]

To echo what Scott hinted at, you don't need a high performance reg on deco bottles. I have an Apeks DS4+TX40 and a MK2+R190 among other balanced models and they all work fine.

I don't use a pony bottle but you might consider getting another M1 for that purpose, using the M1 for future doubles and getting a "deco reg" next year.

[Bric Martin]

Are you going to carry a Deco bottle when you dive doubles? If you are another way to go would be to get an OMS workhorse for the smaller bottle and get a higher quality reg for your doubles. The OMS is not something I would dive as a primary reg, but they are reliable, inexpensive, and easy to service.

For your primary I am a fan of Apeks regs. They breath great and are reliable in a lot of different conditions.

[Tangfish]

I like having matching brands when it comes to regs. It makes it easier when it comes time to service them, and as Scott mentioned when it comes to spare parts and such. That being said, I have multiple Atomic regs and one Apeks XTX200. I agree that the first stage is more compact, but I'm not sure that it's really an advantage in any way. I actually like the swivel-stems myself. I prefer the way the Atomics breathe, but don't really have anything bad to say about my XTX200. It's a matter of preference and budget, really.

[babs13]

I like having matching brands when it comes to regs. It makes it easier when it comes time to service them, and as Scott mentioned when it comes to spare parts and such.

Agreed! Plus I like the M1.

I don't use a pony bottle but you might consider getting another M1 for that purpose, using the M1 for future doubles and getting a "deco reg" next year.

I'm thinking the same thing; this would give more flexibility too.

When you move up to doubles, those M-1's are hard to beat! :biggrin:

Good to know!

I think I'll be adding another M1 to my dive closet soon.

Thanks for everyone's advice!!!

[loanwolf]

Are you going to carry a Deco bottle when you dive doubles? If you are another way to go would be to get an OMS workhorse for the smaller bottle and get a higher quality reg for your doubles. The OMS is not something I would dive as a primary reg, but they are reliable, inexpensive, and easy to service.

For your primary I am a fan of Apeks regs. They breath great and are reliable in a lot of different conditions.

I will agree I use OMS workhorses for my bailout regs. They are compact, solid, reliable, Commercial Diving regs. The bonus is they are about $160.00 and 100% O2 clean out of the box. they also come with 3 different colored 2nd stage covers for gas identification.

[Gill Envy]

there are quite a few good regs out there. I have been a fan of Atomic now for quite some time, I think there really is something to that pressure activated Seat Saver Orifice. the two year service interval is impressive, they are remarkably reliable. For my AL40's, they are bail out, and hardly ever used. My assumption is that if I do need to use a bail out reg that chances are I will be amped up and breathing heavy, since bailing out means something went wrong with my Rebreather. When it really counts the most I want a high performance regulator, one that works well even when it hasn't been used in a long time and one that can be turned down so it won't free flow in heavy current. So far, my Atomic BI and Z1 have met that need. Of course you have to make sure that a regs components are suitable if you are going to run high o2 through them, sadly titanium and high o2 don't mix so well. I'm told to avoid anything over 50% in any atomic reg other than the Z1.

g

[CaptnJack]

sadly stainless and high o2 don't mix so well.

Think you mean titanium. Stainless is fine although few regs have much stainless in them anyway, hard parts are chromed brass.

[defied]

...you don't need a high performance reg on deco bottles. I have an Apeks DS4+TX40 and a MK2+R190 among other balanced models and they all work fine....

It seems to be a west coast thing to think that the DS4 isn't high performance. Weird... 0]

D(B)

[Tangfish]

I'm from the West Coast, and I have DS4s on my Meg.

[CaptnJack]

...you don't need a high performance reg on deco bottles. I have an Apeks DS4+TX40 and a MK2+R190 among other balanced models and they all work fine....

It seems to be a west coast thing to think that the DS4 isn't high performance. Weird... 0]

D(B)

TX40 is a non-balanced downstream 2nd stage so I don't consider the reg as a whole to be "high performance". Works fine though. So does the unbalanced mk2 + non-balanced r190 for that matter.

[Tangfish]

I just use the DS4 first stages, and they've been just fine so far (of course gas supply to a CCR loop is pretty minimal). I still think that the OP should stick with the M1.

[loanwolf]

Almost all Rebreathers use DS4's on them. That says something about the regs reliability. I know a lot of teck divers that use them as well as myself on my OC rig. But many Tech divers prefer to have the turret version of it the DST. It gives them better hose routing.

[defied]

I've got 4 of them. I'm contemplating selling off two of them, and picking up a couple of Dive Rites for my deco stages (Which I don't have built yet anyways). I like them enough. Keeping them the same is cool, but I see them in pairs, not as all four.

D(B)

[Gill Envy]

sadly stainless and high o2 don't mix so well.

Think you mean titanium. Stainless is fine although few regs have much stainless in them anyway, hard parts are chromed brass.

Yep, thanks for fixing my screw up.

And for clarity's sake I dug up more specifics: all but one of the the atomic regulators are rated to EAN 40%. This rating is not just a matter of cleaning, it's the components as mentioned, particularly the titanium innards. Many claim this number to be too conservative saying 50%, no problem) I don't really have a need to go over 50% at this point, 50% is a nice flexible mix for rebreather BO where one has to weigh the value of high o2 for deco with the value of having a flexible mix for SCR use and a lower MOD for emergency BO potential. The B1 has been working great for my needs.

the exception as far as Atomic's official o2 rating is the M1, which is rated up to 80% for tec OC BO: "oxygen mixes up to 80% when special guidelines are followed", also "designed for use in high current situations to eliminate the possibility of free flow", "2 year/300 Dive service interval"... the M1 comes with a large exhaust deflector but all the deflectors are interchangeable if a lower profile one is preferred (as would be the case for a back up or BO reg). Resistance to free flow is a concern to me as i've seen someone loose an entire 40's worth of gas to a free flow on a shot line in current.

Going with Atomic regs as BO is definitely a choice to pay a premium for high performance... they are pricey, but they have worked for me with remarkable reliability and long service intervals. a great investment for the long run but certainly not the only viable option.

[vbcoachchris]

Since I often find myself on my deco regs/ stage regs (at depth) longer than my backgas regs during a dive, I want them to be of equally quality. I have no desire to spend the majority of my dive on a sub par reg.

I have a turret on almost every deco reg I have and I HATED EVERY one of them when they had a 40’’ hose on them. The hose would constantly flip over my head :angry: .

You need to understand the “why” behind the 40 hose

Some tech divers felt that the standard octo hose (which routed very nice when slung from the left side), was too short to proficiently share gas in an emergency.

The regs lacked a turret, so the hose would make an awkward bend and essentially 2 -4’’ of the hose became unusable, so to compensate they used a 40’’ custom hose.

This became so popular that today a 40’’ hose is not considered custom, but instead standard.

Today many regs have a turret, so the 36’’-38’’ standard octo hose works fine.

For me the 36’’ works best as it does not auto flip over my head constantly.

Scott

[loanwolf]

Resistance to free flow is a concern to me as i've seen someone loose an entire 40's worth of gas to a free flow on a shot line in current.

Going with Atomic regs as BO is definitely a choice to pay a premium for high performance... they are pricey, but they have worked for me with remarkable reliability and long service intervals. a great investment for the long run but certainly not the only viable option.

As several of us have said earlier the OMS Workhorse is a great reg for Deco/BO. At $160.00 and 100%O2 clean right out of the box it is hard to beat. A Deco/BO reg is something that you are only going to be using when decoing or on bailout headed for the surface not as a primary, when on deco you should not be working as hard. I have breathed off these from 300 feet with no problem. Don’t get me wrong they do not breathe as well as a HP primary will but they do breathe better than a low-end primary will.

As for free flow concerns most tech divers use isolation valves on their 2nd stages.

http://www.piranhadivemfg.com/shop/?sho ... 80&cat=164
Sorry you have to navigate to them flash site.

I use the short ones on my BO reg's, $20.

For a SPG use the Pony Bottle SPG’s, $15.

http://www.piranhadivemfg.com/shop/?sho ... 680&cat=13
Sorry you have to navigate to them flash site.

Wola, for just over $200 you are ready to go for up to 100% O2. You can buy 3 of them for the price of an Atomic. That gives you bottom mix, 50%, and 100%. You are ready for trimix diving.

[loanwolf]

Since I often find myself on my deco regs/ stage regs (at depth) longer than my backgas regs during a dive, I want them to be of equally quality. I have no desire to spend the majority of my dive on a sub par reg.

I have a turret on almost every deco reg I have and I HATED EVERY one of them when they had a 40’’ hose on them. The hose would constantly flip over my head :angry: .

You need to understand the “why” behind the 40 hose

Some tech divers felt that the standard octo hose (which routed very nice when slung from the left side), was too short to proficiently share gas in an emergency.

The regs lacked a turret, so the hose would make an awkward bend and essentially 2 -4’’ of the hose became unusable, so to compensate they used a 40’’ custom hose.

This became so popular that today a 40’’ hose is not considered custom, but instead standard.

Today many regs have a turret, so the 36’’-38’’ standard octo hose works fine.

For me the 36’’ works best as it does not auto flip over my head constantly.

Scott

I run a 6' hose on my lean mix BO reg. that way they can swim or scooter behind/above me if we cannot pass off the bottle, and I still maintaine control of my gas . I have found it works quite well.

[CaptnJack]

I run a 6' hose on my lean mix BO reg. that way they can swim or scooter behind/above me if we cannot pass off the bottle, and I still maintaine control of my gas . I have found it works quite well.

Put them in front, lest you rip the reg out of the recipients mouth at a very inopportune moment.

[loanwolf]

I run a 6' hose on my lean mix BO reg. that way they can swim or scooter behind/above me if we cannot pass off the bottle, and I still maintaine control of my gas . I have found it works quite well.

Put them in front, lest you rip the reg out of the recipients mouth at a very inopportune moment.

the scooter usally beside, In penatration behind/above with a hand on me so I know they are thier and I am reading thier hand signals. Sometimes yes they are in front but not too often.

[Gill Envy]

Greg, the Atomic option is for those who think the extra performance is worth the extra investment and your option is for the more frugally minded. Like so many things, it probably just comes down to personal taste. You are way more experienced in deep diving than I, so I certainly respect your recomendation. If I didn't own these regs already from my OC days, it would probably have been too prohibitive to purchase them for this purpose and quite possibly I would have never bothered to fully appreciate the difference.

A Deco/BO reg is something that you are only going to be using when decoing or on bailout headed for the surface not as a primary, when on deco you should not be working as hard.

Ideally, yes, I agree but what about those times when the shit hit's the fan and you are working much harder than you intended?...like in an emergency, in heavy current when you've got a lot of deco left to go, you could find yourself spending a lot of time on your BO reg working harder than you "should". It's my understanding that the whole WOB-Co2 retention issue that gets talked about a lot with CCR also applies to OC and it would seem that being able to BO to a high performance reg could be worth the extra cash at least in some circumstances. It took me one nasty experience many years ago pawing at the sand below a hundred feet trying to swim up against a 2 knot down welling sucking through what felt like a narrow straw to be convinced that a high performance reg just might be worth the extra cash even though the need for that extra performance is rare. I've concluded that there are times when that extra edge can span an otherwise potentially lethal gap and that is priceless to me. There are plenty of other valid conclusions and I admit perhaps I have overreacted to a few experiences I've had early on, but the memory of the feeling of suffocation is something that has stayed with me and has been very motivating... it's no wonder it's used as an interrogation technique.

As for free flow concerns most tech divers use isolation valves on their 2nd stages.

I have resisted plenty of norms like this only later to come around, maybe this is yet another...time will tell. On the other hand, I've had flow stops stick and I've watched people take in water expecting a reg to work when they needed it the most and were too caught up in the moment to remember to turn on that valve. At this point, I'm going to be sticking with the practice of leaving all sources of gas on and all regs functional... so a reg that doesn't free flow in current still has it's appeal to me.

Wola, for just over $200 you are ready to go for up to 100% O2. You can buy 3 of them for the price of an Atomic. That gives you bottom mix, 50%, and 100%. You are ready for trimix diving.

Surely this is an impressive option for the money, but one of the things that's both cool and a bit frustrating all at the same time about this sport is just how diverse the opinions out there are as to what is the best BO mix split. I"m guessing OC tec is more straightforward. My trimix instructor shies away from carying 100% o2 as BO, explaining that it's better to have more gas that can be breathed deeper and that another advantage of a leaner gas is it can be used either for OC or SCR, making it a more flexible option. I guess I buy that argument for now, so I don't have a need for a 100% o2 reg.

Cheers,
g

[loanwolf]

Greg, the Atomic option is for those who think the extra performance is worth the extra investment and your option is for the more frugally minded. Like so many things, it probably just comes down to personal taste. You are way more experienced in deep diving than I, so I certainly respect your recomendation. If I didn't own these regs already from my OC days, it would probably have been too prohibitive to purchase them for this purpose and quite possibly I would have never bothered to fully appreciate the difference.

A Deco/BO reg is something that you are only going to be using when decoing or on bailout headed for the surface not as a primary, when on deco you should not be working as hard.

Ideally, yes, I agree but what about those times when the shit hit's the fan and you are working much harder than you intended?...like in an emergency, in heavy current when you've got a lot of deco left to go, you could find yourself spending a lot of time on your BO reg working harder than you "should". It's my understanding that the whole WOB-Co2 retention issue that gets talked about a lot with CCR also applies to OC and it would seem that being able to BO to a high performance reg could be worth the extra cash at least in some circumstances. It took me one nasty experience many years ago pawing at the sand below a hundred feet trying to swim up against a 2 knot down welling sucking through what felt like a narrow straw to be convinced that a high performance reg just might be worth the extra cash even though the need for that extra performance is rare. I've concluded that there are times when that extra edge can span an otherwise potentially lethal gap and that is priceless to me. There are plenty of other valid conclusions and I admit perhaps I have overreacted to a few experiences I've had early on, but the memory of the feeling of suffocation is something that has stayed with me and has been very motivating... it's no wonder it's used as an interrogation technique.

As for free flow concerns most tech divers use isolation valves on their 2nd stages.

I have resisted plenty of norms like this only later to come around, maybe this is yet another...time will tell. On the other hand, I've had flow stops stick and I've watched people take in water expecting a reg to work when they needed it the most and were too caught up in the moment to remember to turn on that valve. At this point, I'm going to be sticking with the practice of leaving all sources of gas on and all regs functional... so a reg that doesn't free flow in current still has it's appeal to me.

Wola, for just over $200 you are ready to go for up to 100% O2. You can buy 3 of them for the price of an Atomic. That gives you bottom mix, 50%, and 100%. You are ready for trimix diving.

Surely this is an impressive option for the money, but one of the things that's both cool and a bit frustrating all at the same time about this sport is just how diverse the opinions out there are as to what is the best BO mix split. I"m guessing OC tec is more straightforward. My trimix instructor shies away from carying 100% o2 as BO, explaining that it's better to have more gas that can be breathed deeper and that another advantage of a leaner gas is it can be used either for OC or SCR, making it a more flexible option. I guess I buy that argument for now, so I don't have a need for a 100% o2 reg.

Cheers,
g

No I totally understand it is an option that is available and I do not discourage it at all. But the other works great as well and is much cheaper. When one starts to go OC tech it gets expensive. And G., a Dr.'s such as you with large deep pockets and money doesn’t mean anything too. Woops, wait a minute that was before the little one came to be . No one at a LDS is going to give someone the option, so I feel I have put out and let folks know there are other options available that are fine and work well and save them a ton of money. And I have swum full kick in current from 200+ on them before. They do breathe quite well. And yes Mel will teach you 50% for CCR is about the hottest you will use and maybe 80% once in a while. But for the most part your bailout will be bottom mix and 50% for CCR. With OC most use 50% and 80% or 100% for deco and if you are decoing you had better not be working hard. You bypassed the OC thing so you never learned that. As you get more time on your unit and more comfortable with TM dives now that you can finally do them :occasion5: you will see that if you have to bailout you should never have let things get so bad that you are in a condition of panic and that heavy of breathing. Remember if something doesn’t fell right "stop, bailout, and think/troubleshoot" Mel taught you that. Time means very little to us on CCR, even if we have to go to bailout. If you gas planned correctly you have all the time you need and plenty more to get out of trouble and back to the top. That is if you gas plan right . That is why bailout practice I feel is important to do all the time. One tends to forget after some time from CCR boot camp .