We're not in Seattle anymore, Toto ...

[Grateful Diver]

Some of you have seen this elsewhere ... for those of you who don't visit DMX, here's a trip report from my recent cave class (just got home early this morning) ...

I just got back from taking classes in the Florida caves. I had signed up with Jim Wyatt for an 8-day Cavern to Full Cave class ... what some of y'all might refer to as "zero to hero". But truth to tell I don't feel very heroic about it ... mostly just tired.

The course started out with a very full day of academics at Jim's house. Another pair of divers from Utah were joining myself and my dive buddy, Kam, for the first two segments of the class ... Cavern and Basic. There was also another instructor ... Carl ... who had come from Houston to do a crossover to NSS-CDS, which was the agency we were getting certified through.

We had a long morning of Power Point presentation, then after lunch Jim had us each assemble our gear ... which he evaluated to make sure it was going to meet the standards for the class. We spent the rest of the afternoon doing dryland drills ... running reels through the trees in Jim's yard, tying off spools to the line, doing some "blackout" scenarios, and learning how to use cookies and arrows. It was interesting, but I kept thinking to myself "there's got to be more to it than this".

There was.

Monday was Cavern dives in the Ballroom at Ginnie. The Ballroom is a medium-sized cavern which is blocked off at the cave entrance with a grill to prevent the Open Water students who use this part of the spring from accessing the cave. It's pretty shallow, with easy entrance/exit ... so it's a great place to get introduced to the basics. I immediately discovered that I'd brought both the wrong backplate and the wrong undergarment ... and that I'd be spending the week seriously overweighted.

Deal with it.

We logged a total of seven dives during what turned into a very long day. For Kam and I the reel work was the most "interesting" part, because although we'd been practicing those skills at home, tying off to pilings and old barges is quite different than learning how to look at a chunk of rock and figuring out how to make a tie-off that won't come loose the minute you start to swim away from it. We worked at making ties, running line, and doing "blind" exits until we could do it with some repetition ... and some success ... and went home feeling like we'd got it all figured out.

Silly us.

Tuesday Jim took us to Devil's Ear ... which is a completely different entrance to the cave, and considerably more advanced conditions than the Ballroom had shown us. Unfortunately, one of the other two students had his own ear issues that day, and wouldn't be diving. So his dive buddy hooked up with Kam and I to make a 3-person team. That provided its own difficulties as we mostly weren't on the same page about anything ... and it made for some real unhappy team work as the day progressed.

Down in cave country, current is called "flow" ... and there was some serious current "flowing" out of the Ear. The entrance is a hole ... maybe 20 feet wide ... in the bottom of a shallow river. You drop in the hole, and at about 20 ffw there's a huge log sitting across the entrance. To get into the cave, you swim to the log, dump all the gas out of wing and drysuit, grab ahold of the sandstone rocks along the side of the entry, and pull yourself down against the "flow". The bottom of the entry's at about 55 ffw.

After all the horror stories I'd heard about the Ear, I was pleasantly surprised to discover is wasn't as bad as I thought it would be ... that was, as long as I wasn't running a reel and could follow the instructor as he showed us where to go and which handholds to grab, it didn't seem so bad. Reality set in later ... when he didn't do those things.

We spent most of this day only about 300 to 400 feet inside the cave, doing skills and drills and learning how to deal with the flow without wearing ourselves or our fingertips out. About the most memorable part of the day for me was when we were doing the lost line drills. Jim had us put on a blackout mask, then took us off the line a ways and turned us loose. I got my safety spool tied in quick enough, and was doing the search pattern for the line. And after 10 exasperating minutes of not finding it, Jim finally stopped me and handed me back my mask. Looking around I didn't see the line at all. Looking up, it was about a foot over my head. I learned something important about awareness ... I'd paid attention to all the wrong things. On our way into the cave the line had been running pretty close to the floor ... but about 20 feet before Jim stopped us for the exercise it had left the floor and angled up to a place where it took a right turn. I'd missed that, and had been flailing around on the floor looking for a line that wasn't there. Lesson learned ... reserve a little part of my awareness to always know where the line is.

Don't assume.

Wednesday we went to a different spring called Peacock Springs. Peacock has much less flow ... but also less visibility (about 40 to 50 feet, as opposed to basically "clear" at Ginnie). Jim had us in this little tunnel called Peanut most of the day, doing drills. Awareness sucked ... our third team mate wasn't used to using a light (had never used a can light before this class), and wasn't doing well at shining a light where his team mates could see it. Now, I don't want to seem like I'm dumping on the guy ... we all made blunders that day ... but it's damn distracting when you have to constantly put effort into looking around for a team mate. It's also damn distracting when you have to spend more effort on what your team's doing than what you're supposed to be doing ... and I let it affect my own efforts at the simple things ... my reel work wasn't up to my own expectations, and neither was my buoyancy control. It wasn't a good day for any of us, and I went home seriously frustrated with the outcome of the day's efforts. The most positive thing I can say was that when Jim handed me the blackout mask this time and took me off the line I was able to find it without too much difficulty.

Thank God for the little things.

Thursday morning we were back at Peacock. I asked Jim if the team could have a meeting before he started the class. After some discussion about why I wanted the three of us to talk "outside" of the class curriculum, Jim said we could. We focused on what we'd done wrong the previous day, why we'd not done well, and how we could do it better. We got our third team member to understand how his light work was making it more difficult for us to stay together and work together, and what we could all do to tighten up the team. Since Kam and I had the advantage of talking about all this stuff on the hour-long drive from the dive site to where we were staying, I basically wanted Scott to know what we were talking about and also give him a chance to contribute his own thoughts. I do think it helped, as our teamwork that day went much smoother. By lunch time, Scott's part of the class was over. From here and on it was me and Kam ... and we'd be diving thirds, rather than the sixths we'd been diving up to now. That meant we'd be doing much longer dives.

Our afternoon dive was a traverse to another opening in the cave complex called Olson's Sink. Up to that point our class had been mostly drills. And I have to be honest ... crawling around in a rock tube with a blackout mask on, breathing off of somebody else's air and struggling to follow a line without bumping your head hadn't been my idea of a good time. The run to Olson's was totally different. The cave opened up into large rooms, vistas, alluring rock formations, and mysterious passages leading off into who-knows-where. Finally I was able to look around and think to myself ... "OK, hand me the crack pipe, Lynne ... I think I'm starting to understand now."

Friday we were back at Ginnie. This day we were going into a different entrance called Devil's Eye. It basically leads to the same place as the Ear, but takes a longer, more confined route to get there. Jim told the two of us he wanted us to work on tightening up our reel work and paying more attention to our buoyancy control ... both easier said than done with two divers who aren't used to these conditions and are diving overweighted. These entries into the flow ... where you have to dump all the air out of your wing and drysuit till you tie in, then get neutral quickly and swim up to the ceiling (40 feet above your tie-in) ... are just so much more difficult when you have to honk on your inflator for several seconds just to get your ass off the bottom. It's part technique ... but by damn, next time I come to Florida I'm bringing different gear. Proper weighting will make this part of the job sooo much easier.

Although it was a longer and more convoluted entry, the Eye proved to be easier than the Ear ... mostly. There was this one crack just at the top of where it shelfs down steeply that gave me some challenge ... I just don't like having to wiggle through places where my tummy is scraping the bottom and my tanks are scraping the top. But I was able to run a passable reel down to the sign and tie it off without much difficulty. The other added "bonus" was that we were bringing O2 bottles down with us, which we left down near where we tied off the reel. We were also doing our first jumps ... where you run a spool line between one fixed guideline and another that branches off into a different part of the cave. Jim had planned a dive that involved three jumps. There was some minor confusion between myself and Kam in terms of who was doing what ... and I had some problem finding one of the lines we were jumping to ... but we managed to muddle through it without any significant errors. On the way back, Jim started throwing failures at us. It was during one of those failures that I had my most significant "issue" of the class.

We were almost out ... and back into the high-flow part of the cave. Jim had thrown a few things at us up to that point which we handled more or less effectively. We got to the Park Bench ... where the main (gold) guideline takes a right turn ... and Kam's light went out. I turned around and shined my light on him ... at which point he took his hand off his light ... and I turned back to the line and proceeded to make the turn. As you make that turn the current (er, "flow") really picks up and it's kind've like doing a drift dive in the Narrows. A few seconds later I noticed Kam hadn't followed ... so I turned around and pulled back into the flow till I got to the turn. Looking around the corner, I saw him and signaled OK? He returned the signal and Jim gave us the signal to proceed toward the cave entrance, at which point I turned to go back. I no sooner turned than Kam flashed the Emergency signal with his light. I turned again, passed off my long hose, and popped my backup in my mouth. Now, I was tired, I was pissed we were getting so many failures at once, and I was careless ... neglecting to purge the backup before breathing. And because I was breathing hard at that point, that first breath was deep. The little bit of water in that reg went deep into my windpipe ... and it spasmed shut. It was like a one-way valve ... I could breathe out easy enough, but I could not ... even a little bit ... breathe in. It was all I could do to keep myself mentally calm. We'd been deep for a long time, I'd just finished some fairly significant exertion, and my body was demanding air that I couldn't deliver.

Serious oh shit moment.

I dropped to the bottom, signaled Kam to HOLD ... then signaled I wanted my primary reg back. Lots of stuff was going through my mind. First logical ... I don't know if this reg's leaking, so give me back one I know isn't. Second ... crap, Jim's not gonna be happy I screwed up the exercise. Then ... shit, I can't breathe and my body really wants me to. I briefly thought I might die here ... the body's demands were getting quite insistent at that point. But I put that thought out quickly ... just relax, stay calm ... it's just a spasm and it will pass. I need to just not move until it does. Finally ... after what Kam told me later was about a minute ... I was able to finally take a small, wheezing inhale. Oh that was the sweetest breath I think I've ever taken. The next one was better, and the next better still. The spasm was relaxing. I signaled OK and HOLD ... and just stayed there, not moving till I got my breathing under control. Then I got myself off the bottom, looked around at Kam, Carl and Jim hovering around me, signaled OK and pointed down the line with my thumb up ... let's get outta here.

That whole way back was a jumble of conflicting thoughts.

Jim ain't gonna let me finish this class.

Maybe I don't belong in a cave.

God, that was a stupid maneuver ... I teach Open Water students not to do that.

Pay attention ... Jim might think this is a good time to toss another failure at me.

Finally we were at the sign and it was time to pick up the O2 bottles and pull the reel. Jim signaled asking me if I was OK, and I returned affirmative. Just go ... I'll be right behind you. And although I struggled a bit with the line (getting a reel up in flow is harder than getting it down), we arrived at our 20-foot stop and switched to our deco bottles without difficulty.

The second dive we were going to do the first half of a circuit ... four jumps, go to thirds, place a cookie and retrace our route. The way in went without a hitch. The way out we made the most aggregious error of the whole week. At one of our jumps, Carl led us the wrong way and we obligingly followed. Both of us had noticed that the arrows were pointing in the wrong direction ... and neither one of us processed what that meant. We were blithely following Carl deeper into the cave and didn't catch it until he turned around and waggled his finger at us ... at which point both of us almost simultaneously slapped our foreheads and knew we'd screwed up big-time. We turned around and headed out ... knowing that this was a very bad test to fail. Just to make sure we didn't dwell on it till after the dive, Jim and Carl threw nearly simultaneous OOA's at us to see if we were paying attention. We were.

Jim told us after the dive that he'll give us that mistake once ... but if it happens again, class is over.

No kidding ... that's how people die in caves.

Saturday we were back at Ginnie. This time we're headed back down the Ear ... only this time I'm running the reel and we're taking our deco bottles down to the the gold line with us. I got my ass handed to me. Running a line into that flow proved more than I could handle ... and I ended up blowing through almost 500 psi before I ended up with a rats-nested reel. Jim thumbed the dive, and we spent the rest of the morning alternating between me and Kam running reels down the Ear ... Jim with me and Kam with Carl ... until they were satisfied we could do it.

In the afternoon we completed our circuit ... Jim told Carl this was his dive to teach, and he'd be part of the dive team. He described himself to Kam and I as "the weakest diver" and left it up to us to figure out how to handle it. We put him in the middle to start the dive, with me in the lead and Kam in the back. This dive we'd arranged to switch leads after each jump, so that the person pulling the next spool would already be in the rear when we reached the jump. So once we got to the first jump we re-ordered the team and put Jim in front. The transitions went very smoothly up to the point where Jim decided to take a header down the wrong side of one of our guidelines. Of course, he was trying to lead us the wrong way again, and we weren't falling for it. He tried it a couple more times on the way in ... but after a while I think he was satisfied that we'd learned our lesson on that mistake.

In hindsight, I'm glad we made that mistake in class ... so perhaps it won't bite us in the ass later.

Sunday's final dive was at a different spring called Little River. This is a beautiful cave, but unlike the caves we'd been in previously this one had a very silty bottom. Kam tied in the reel, and once again had some issues dealing with the flow ... which was pretty heavy. Handling the deco bottle and the reel without silting up the cave proved difficult. Most of our issues today revolved around silting issues ... getting fin tips too low, me touching a hand into the bottom while setting a jump spool ... and some communication confusion on the way back that resulted in a momentary separation.

After the dive, Jim told us that he'll pass us through Apprentice ... but that we need more work on the reel, on dealing with buoyancy in the flow, and on teamwork before he'll pass us for Full Cave. I think it was exactly the right call. I don't think I'm quite ready to handle complex navigation and deco obligations in a cave without supervision quite yet. So I'll go back and get some simpler dives, work on my reel work, play "spiderman" learning to perfect my pull and glide technique, and generally get more accustomed to the environment before trying to complete my Full Cave certification.

Altogether this class kicked my ass. I know my abilities at home ... in Puget Sound conditions. And although I think our local conditions are demanding enough, they're not anything like the caves. It really brought home to me how ... no matter how much you think you know ... there's always things in diving that will challenge you.

Now all I gotta do is get back down there. I'm thinking maybe October or November.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Jan K]

What a trip report. Bob thank you so much for this. I did little bit of cave diving in prehistoric times. Looking back, I thank God I am still alive. Your description of your class and ordeals make me appreciate the decision I made long, long time ago to stop crawling into tight spaces with no surface, no ambient light and no easy way out. Cave diving is not to be taken lightly. Thank you. I salute you for this

[Tom Nic]

Bob, thank you for posting this report, and for sharing the detail and telling the story the way you did. As always, your transparency is a great learning aid and example for all of us.

I have high respect for caves and the skills it takes to do them. Sounds like excellent training.

Thanks again.

[John Rawlings]

Great report, Bob! Both interesting and intriguing!

Like Jan, it took me back in time in my mind. In the 1970s after I got out of the Army I attended the Florida Institute of Technology and a bunch of us used to head up to Ginnie Springs to "cave dive". We had NO cave training at all and we're lucky that we didn't kill ourselves.....basically we didn't know what we didn't know, and there was no one around to TELL us what we didn't know! (Actually, there probably WAS, but we didn't know enough about anything to know how to find them!)

Still, we hit Devil's Eye, Devil's Ear, Steamboat Springs and Peacock Springs....didn't go in very far, though, so we must've had at least SOME gray matter working between our ears! Looking back at it now, we were basically frickin' idiots, but the good Lord watches over fools, I guess.

Does anyone know when the cave training agencies, NACD and NSS-CDS, started up? I often wonder what path my diving career would have taken had I been introduced to PROPER cave diving back then....

- John

[John Rawlings]

Does anyone know when the cave training agencies, NACD and NSS-CDS, started up? I often wonder what path my diving career would have taken had I been introduced to PROPER cave diving back then....

I just answered my own question with a Google search! The NACD (National Association for Cave Diving) started up in 1968 and the NSS-CDS (National Speleological Society - Cave Diving Section) was incorporated in 1973. So, they were around and active back then....we just didn't know it!

- John

[Geek]

All I can say is WOW, thank you

enough said..... :hello2:

[babs13]

Wowie! :hello2:

Welcome back Bob!

[Joshua Smith]

Great report, Bob! Man, that "forgetting to purge the reg" incident sounds awful. You have my respect for continuing on with the class after that.

[Grateful Diver]

Great report, Bob! Man, that "forgetting to purge the reg" incident sounds awful. You have my respect for continuing on with the class after that.

It's the worst I've ever felt underwater ... but since I had an idea what was going on, it wasn't particularly frightening. My biggest worry was what would happen if I passed out before the spasm let me take a breath.

I have to say, though, that had I not gone through the training I did to become a DM and Instructor, I think it would've been more difficult to stay calm. I've known more than a few folks who question the exercises they make you do ... because they're not realistic. But they're meant to help you learn how to stay calm in an emergency, and I think that made a huge difference in this case.

At least now I know where that limit is ... which is useful information.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[WylerBear]

Great report, Bob! I was with you there in all the caves as I read your report. Valerie and I dove all those caves. The last time we were there we had planned to do both Basic and Apprentice but in the time we had only managed to do Basic. And it was also the right call by our instructor. From what I hear we probably would have had an easier time of it if we had gone to Mexico to train. Which is why we picked Florida and the high flow environment. Kind of like learning to dive in the pnw-learn where it's harder so you can go anywhere after your training.
Thanks for taking me down to Florida. We probably won't get there until next year to continue training but your report helped me expeience Florida caves a bit again. That will have to do me for now.

[rjarnold]

That story had me feeling anxious just reading it! Not that I ever intended to do cave diving, but I certainly don't think it's my 'thing' :P

[Paulicarp]

thank you very much for taking the time to write this report; I'm a better diver for having read it.

[Mattleycrue76]

Thanks for that awesome trip report Bob. When experienced divers like yourself relay the difficulties they go through it makes it a little easier for the rest of us to deal with our own problems and failures.

[John Rawlings]

After the dive, Jim told us that he'll pass us through Apprentice ... but that we need more work on the reel, on dealing with buoyancy in the flow, and on teamwork before he'll pass us for Full Cave. I think it was exactly the right call. I don't think I'm quite ready to handle complex navigation and deco obligations in a cave without supervision quite yet. So I'll go back and get some simpler dives, work on my reel work, play "spiderman" learning to perfect my pull and glide technique, and generally get more accustomed to the environment before trying to complete my Full Cave certification.

Bob -

For those of us with no cave experience, would you explain what exactly the certification limits of an "Apprentice" are? I'm not familiar with that term. Does it require you to dive with an instructor, or with a "Full Cave" certified diver, or are there physical restrictions regarding depth, distance, etc.? I really have no idea and I'm curious.

Considering the colossal difference in environment from what you are used to to that which you and your buddy were facing, I feel that you probably did far better than you give yourself credit for. However, the "Zero to Hero" training concept doesn't make much sense to me.....there is a lot to be said for the gathering of at least some experience between each level.

- John

[LCF]

John, all the agencies have levels of training with limits related to gas, depth, visibility, navigation, decompression and cave characteristics. My Cave 1 cert, for example, has a depth limit of 100 feet, minimum visibility of 40 to start the dive, no restrictions, no decompression, and one navigational decision (T, not jump). Apprentice is no decompression, simple jumps or gaps, no circuits or traverses, no stages, and 130 foot depth limit.

Matt, if you like reading stories about more experienced divers screwing up, you should read the report of my recent cave class . . .

[Zen Diver]

In NSS-CDS and NACD there are four levels: Cavern, Basic/Intro, Apprentice and Full Cave. As Lynne said above, each level has certain restrictions, and of course, more intensive training and skill sets required, as it should be.

I agree with Wylerbear, I was reliving our Florida adventures as I read your report Bob. We struggled with flow as well, and were much relieved when our instructor took us to Peacock, with virtually no flow, where he realized our issues were more with the flow than basic skills competency.

What an adventure.

-Valerie

[John Rawlings]

John, all the agencies have levels of training with limits related to gas, depth, visibility, navigation, decompression and cave characteristics. My Cave 1 cert, for example, has a depth limit of 100 feet, minimum visibility of 40 to start the dive, no restrictions, no decompression, and one navigational decision (T, not jump). Apprentice is no decompression, simple jumps or gaps, no circuits or traverses, no stages, and 130 foot depth limit.

In NSS-CDS and NACD there are four levels: Cavern, Basic/Intro, Apprentice and Full Cave. As Lynne said above, each level has certain restrictions, and of course, more intensive training and skill sets required, as it should be.

Thanks, Lynne and Valerie!

That makes complete sense. I assume that each cave training agency will be subtly different from the others and have its own variation. Were you trained through GUE, NACD or NSS-CDS?

Those of you that are cave divers - what is the scuttlebutt out there in the cave diving community about the "Zero to Hero" sessions? Are they perceived as a good opportunity or not a good way to go? If you don't live in "cave country", like we do up here, I can see such training as being attractive to many since a diver could get the "full-meal deal" in one fell swoop during a two week vacation before having to fly back home, (thereby saving a LOT of time and money), but I would also tend to question its full value since the experience of time and numerous cave dives between each step would not accompany it.

If this is a hot potato issue, just slap me upside the head and we can back away from this, but I am curious as to how this is perceived amongst the cave community.

- John

[Zen Diver]

My impression, and it's just MY impression, was that the Z-H courses were not looked upon favorably. I gather that not many people can really accomplish that as it's an ENORMOUS amount to cover in just one week. I think what many people fail to realize is the amount of stress in cave classes. It's a totally different kind of diving to anything open water, filled with physical stressors, mental stressors, emotional stressors and academic stressors. It's not just a physical fatigue at the end of the day, it's exhaustion in every possible way. And there is no forgiving in caves, nor cave classes. Skills MUST be done and done well, as truly, your life and the life of your teammates depends on it. There is no forgiving in caves. Did I mention that caves are not forgiving? It bears repeating.

By the way, caves are not forgiving.

-Valerie

[Sounder]

I percieved the use of the term "zero to hero" to be from an angle of disapproval from that community. I could be wrong, but when I think of someone going from uncertified to scuba instructor in three months, I could definitely understand the use of that term as well... and it's not a good thing.

I can argue it both ways. The perception may be the same, but I think it depends on the student. Someone like Bob has their stuff together before ever entering that class. Other people likely don't have it together like Bob does, and I can see the intensive course being inappropriate for them.

Dunno really. I'm likely doing Cavern + Basic/Intro (or equiv.) either in November before DEMA or sometime in the next year when I have friends cave diving in Mexico I can hang out with. I'm really interested in the training and exposure, but don't have the time availability to keep my skills sharp in the coming years so I have no business doing anything more.

[Zen Diver]

I'm not saying it's not impossible, but it's boot camp and people need to know that going in. It's not for everybody. Cave classes are not recreational diving classes.

-Valerie

[Grateful Diver]

I don't have the exact limitations in front of me (they're at home), but basically I am certified to plan and conduct my own dives, with some limitations.

I can dive to "thirds" which is to say one third of my gas supply going in, one third coming out, and one third in reserve. Lower levels of training have to dive to sixths, which make for much shorter dives.

I can do one jump off the mainline ... which is to say, making a tie-in between the main line and a guideline that branches off into another part of the cave system. Full Cave lets you do multiple jumps and circuits.

I can use a deco bottle, but no stage bottles for extended range diving.

I can do restrictions (areas where divers must make their way through in single-file) but nothing requiring me to remove gear.

So in effect, the Apprentice level opens up most of the cave system that I'd be comfortable diving right now anyway.

As for the "zero to hero" concept ... I'm generally not in favor of it. But in some cases ... where you're dealing with a very experienced diver, especially one who has had some similar level of training, it isn't as bad as you might think. There are a lot of transferrable skills, for example, between someone who's trained to penetrate wrecks and someone who's cave trained ... although there are enough differences that I wouldn't want to assume that experience in one qualifies you to do with other without additional training. But that exposure certainly makes the training easier to assimilate.

I think had I taken this class in Mexico ... where there is less flow to deal with ... I'd have passed it easily. But in hindsight, even if I had passed, I think my first dozen or so dives would've been at the Apprentice level ... just to establish a comfort zone at that level before trying more complex dives.

Ultimately it always boils down to what a diver chooses to do with their training. The Apprentice card grants me access to the cave, and there's no one down there to prevent me from diving above my certification level. But it would be really dumb to do so. If nothing else, the training is designed to give you a healthy respect for how easily you can kill yourself in that environment if you aren't careful and don't dive within your own limitations.

This type of diving isn't for everyone. I'm still not even sure it's right for me ... but I wanted to experience it, and I do think that overall it'll make me a better diver.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Grateful Diver]

Dunno really. I'm likely doing Cavern + Basic/Intro (or equiv.) either in November before DEMA or sometime in the next year when I have friends cave diving in Mexico I can hang out with. I'm really interested in the training and exposure, but don't have the time availability to keep my skills sharp in the coming years so I have no business doing anything more.

If you can plan it for the week after DEMA, I'll be down there to dive with ya ... I'm going to plan my next trip for Nov. 7 to 15.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Sounder]

Dunno really. I'm likely doing Cavern + Basic/Intro (or equiv.) either in November before DEMA or sometime in the next year when I have friends cave diving in Mexico I can hang out with. I'm really interested in the training and exposure, but don't have the time availability to keep my skills sharp in the coming years so I have no business doing anything more.

If you can plan it for the week after DEMA, I'll be down there to dive with ya ... I'm going to plan my next trip for Nov. 7 to 15.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'll let you know. Erica suggests waiting until after grad-school is finished (only 7 more months!! ). I'm also leaning toward Mexican caves, but I'm not 100% clear why my gut is urging me that way. We'll see though - Rob Neto is available and I'll be in Florida anyway, so that's an attraction. I just need to look at work-work & school work... and I may have a case approaching a critical hearing around that time too. I'll let you know... but maybe we go to Mexico next year if this time doesn't work?!

[John Rawlings]

Thanks, everyone! Good explanations and commentary!

Bob, I imagine that it was an experience that you will remember for the rest of your life, for a variety of reasons.

[LCF]

There have definitely been problems in Florida, with people finishing a ZTH class and then trying to blast out and dive at the level of their certification. Bob's not somebody who would do that, but it's one of the reasons the classes are somewhat frowned upon. Skill itself doesn't equate to judgment.

There is a lot of cave that is available at less than a Full Cave cert, even in Florida (and more in Mexico).

Even breaking my training up into parts, the classes have been long and very difficult.

John, the curriculum and restrictions do differ from agency to agency. I'm GUE trained; Bob was taking an NACD class. NAUI has an entirely different set of restrictions (which, to me, in a lot of ways, make more sense than the others). In general, though, novice cave divers are kept pretty much on the mainline and out of small passage or low visibility; further training gives you the ability to do more complex navigation and get into parts of the cave that require more skill to negotiate safely, and raise the risk of getting stuck, lost, or having to do some or all of an exit in zero viz.