Dive retailers

[scottsax]

Interesting article in Undercurrent about the current and future business models of dive shops.

[defied]

Wow. Talk about Bass Ackwards. If you want to make any money off of potential divers, you have to get them certified and loving it first. Then you start selling them the gear.

As a matter of fact, a good business model would be throw in a beginning openwater cert for free upon purchase of equipment. That would make more sense than the nonsense the writer posted (More like ranted).

D(B)

[Tangfish]

Training should be a profit center, not a loss leader.

Training is a profit center and not a loss leader, in the tropics where many dive centers charge $350 for OW over 2-3 days. They do this because they know that vacationers are very unlikely to buy very much gear, since they're on vacation.

[defied]

I was about to actually spew some more drivel about this... In an economic fashion, selling instruction for a low price, in order to sell gear would be a fine ideal for a dive shop, however touting gear specials on purchase of instruction would benefit independant instructors as well. That owuld of course require a partnership between the diveshop and the instructor, but as that would benefit the diveshop doubly, they shouldn't have an issue with that.

I could rant on, but I've got to get out the door, and go home. I'll be back on this topic, I'm sure.

D(B)

[scottsax]

Wow. Talk about Bass Ackwards. If you want to make any money off of potential divers, you have to get them certified and loving it first. Then you start selling them the gear.

As a matter of fact, a good business model would be throw in a beginning openwater cert for free upon purchase of equipment. That would make more sense than the nonsense the writer posted (More like ranted).

D(B)

Yeah, it was an opinion piece, and I took it as such. I'm torn, though-should OW be cheaper to make it easier to get more customers in the door, or more expensive, so people understand that it's serious stuff?

[Mattleycrue76]

Dive shops really can't hike the price too much because there would be plenty of independant instructors who would outcompete for business.

IMHO the best way for dive shops to capitalize on their investment in OW class subsidies is to make sure they get people diving locally. There are far too many certified people who live in the beautiful PNW but have never dove here. It's a shame and lost revenue to the dive shops.

[defied]

Did not notice that it was an opinion post. 0]

ooops...

D(B)

[girldiver]

As an independent instructor...I'll feel free to comment here...

Look at the other outdoor industries where they have professional instruction. One example...surfing...$60 - $85 per person ($20 per hour per person) for a 3 hour clinic in groups of 6 - 8. Let's see, on the light side, an Open Water class is 30+ hours...but let's just say 30 for example...that would make surf instruction worth $1800.

What is it about learning to explore an environment that CAN and DOES take participants lives that equals $5 per hour per person? ($150 for the scuba chain classes) And that's the COST to the participant. Many shop instructors are only getting paid $50 per student IF they finish the course. Let's see...that's $1.60 per student per hour. Hmm....and we call ourselves professional??

I learned to ski in Colorado with a private instructor for $150 for 2 hours...and I wasn't screaming down hills headed for trees. Golf "pros" earn their living teaching golf. And tennis pro's the same. But dive instructors...part timers who enjoy passing their hobby onto someone else. Unfortunately, our hobby costs instructors ALOT of money to get certified to teach...and the risks of teaching can affect their lives for the rest of their life with ONE mistake. This isn't teaching web design.

And yes...if shops were smart, they would give a commission to independents to bring their students into the shop and demonstrate gear. There would be a big return in revenue for the shop...ah...but I've said enough.

Going back to unloading tanks now.

[lizard0924]

As an independent instructor...I'll feel free to comment here...

Look at the other outdoor industries where they have professional instruction. One example...surfing...$60 - $85 per person ($20 per hour per person) for a 3 hour clinic in groups of 6 - 8. Let's see, on the light side, an Open Water class is 30+ hours...but let's just say 30 for example...that would make surf instruction worth $1800.

What is it about learning to explore an environment that CAN and DOES take participants lives that equals $5 per hour per person? ($150 for the scuba chain classes) And that's the COST to the participant. Many shop instructors are only getting paid $50 per student IF they finish the course. Let's see...that's $1.60 per student per hour. Hmm....and we call ourselves professional??

I think, as an independent instructor, you are free to charge whatever you believe the market will bear for your services, aren't you? If you want to charge a higher rate, then its up to you to market yourself in a way that compels people to pay a premium for your services.

For most people, getting the first c-card is a means to an end (for a sport they may or may not continue....after all, diving requires a bit more of a time and effort commitment than, say, golf or surfing).

[defied]

Roger that. I can go buy a spiffy board for $800-$1200, and surf my ass off after about $150.00 on instruction. That's the way it's always been.

Or... I can go get certified for $350.00, and then spend $2K EASY on gear to continue my hobby. This is the way it's always been.

See, if people started instructing at the rates of a surf instructor, then we would probably still be charging that much, and it would probably work, and we'd probably have less divers in the world because of it. However, the difference between diving and surfing was marketing. Some funny bunny came up with a business plan for diving, who was NOT the samee guy who came up with the plan for surfing. Then some guys selling the gear realized how specialized diving can be sold as, and began charging a pretty decent amount for gear. Surfers boards were pretty cheap for the longest time, but somebody else cam in and changed that plan.

So... in Summary (0]), you could charge specialized rates for your service, but you're going to have to pimp you ads out, and offer some sh!t hot service to compete. If you can, then you can begin to raise that standard expectation.

D(B)

[Mattleycrue76]

Basic suppy and demand. Obviously there are plenty of Instructors and even more DMs out there who are willing to do this as a hobby. If this principal applied to doctors you could go to med school for 2 grand. Diving instruction is a victim of it's Instructors love and passion for this pasttime. Sucks if you're trying to make a living at it but kinda cool that there are so many people out there that want to share the joy of diving with others.

[Geek]

Ah, I love diving and I'm all for cheaper instruction and equipment cost until I have to dive at the same sight with someone with sub-par training and gear that will get them killed.

I just think that instruction should cost enough people know that it means something, it's hard for some to see that value in continueing there training on to AOW, Rescue etc, when they didn't SPEND on the training. People are funny, I sell refurbashed computers all day, I put $150 on a computer it's there for a month, I put $300 on same computer it's sold in 2 days. If instructions too cheap people might not see the value in it at all.

And as an aside, picking the sports of golf and surfing, maybe not the right ones. Golfing is a very expensive sport to learn well and buy equipment for maybe as much as diving, gear wise and WAY more in training cost when you figure in green fee's. Surfing is way cheaper equipment wise but takes a hell of a lot more effort and time if you want to do anything more than be a boogy boarder...I do both and I'm just saying

Just my 2psi

[lizard0924]

And as an aside, picking the sports of golf and surfing, maybe not the right ones. Golfing is a very expensive sport to learn well and buy equipment for maybe as much as diving, gear wise and WAY more in training cost when you figure in green fee's. Surfing is way cheaper equipment wise but takes a hell of a lot more effort and time if you want to do anything more than be a boogy boarder...I do both and I'm just saying

Totally agree....my point was simply that to be an occasional golfer or surfer, the barrier to entry is minimal (you don't actually ever have to pay a pro to teach you either sport in order to do them)....whereas in diving, the barrier is much higher (you are required to get certified, which means $$ for lessons) whether you intend to do it once, once in awhile or all the time.

In other words, it is the difference between voluntary vs. mandatory engagement with a pro to pursue your hobby.

[Geek]

And as an aside, picking the sports of golf and surfing, maybe not the right ones. Golfing is a very expensive sport to learn well and buy equipment for maybe as much as diving, gear wise and WAY more in training cost when you figure in green fee's. Surfing is way cheaper equipment wise but takes a hell of a lot more effort and time if you want to do anything more than be a boogy boarder...I do both and I'm just saying

Totally agree....my point was simply that to be an occasional golfer or surfer, the barrier to entry is minimal (you don't actually ever have to pay a pro to teach you either sport in order to do them)....whereas in diving, the barrier is much higher (you are required to get certified, which means $$ for lessons) whether you intend to do it once, once in awhile or all the time.

In other words, it is the difference between voluntary vs. mandatory engagement with a pro to pursue your hobby.

Point taken

[LCF]

It has fascinated me for the last four years that people who teach diving do it for almost nothing. I mean, I sat down and figured out what my Fundies instructor made per hour for what is generally agreed to be a fairly expensive class, as classes go, and he made $10 an hour per student. That's high wages for a dive instructor, too, but I wouldn't work for that. And the DMs that show up night after night to help with classes at Peter's shop are all pure volunteers -- they get very little for doing what they do, except some modest discounts on gear.

An AVERAGE riding instructor is making $60 an hour for lessons. Top end clinicians can get four times that. And riding is an expensive sport with really PAINFUL entry costs (try comparing the cost of a full technical diving setup with the cost of a very minimal sort of horse) but there are a lot of people who ride, and riding instructors can make a living at it. But they aren't competing with people who teach -- who are TRAINED to teach -- and give the instruction away.

If training cost what it ought to cost, I think far fewer people would take diving classes, but the ones who did would be likely to buy gear and stay in the sport. But they also might not be the people who travel and support the worldwide dive industry -- I don't know. But I do know that no shop or instructor will survive while charging realistic prices for training, as long as they have to compete with the $99 special down the road.

[Geek]

Maybe if dive shops didn't have a 150% markup or more on gear they could charge more for instruction and get new people into the sport who are put off by the high investment it takes just for equipment...

[ArcticDiver]

There are certain fields where the instructors and staff have established themselves as professionals and are compensated as such and others that have not. Obviously scuba is one of the fields that has not. The question is: Why not? I can think of several reasons. But, I'm not sure any of them would hold up under scrutiny. Perhaps others would have insights that would benefit us all.

By the way, calling oneself a professional does not, in the eyes of others, make one a professional. In the context of this discussion we are mainly referring to public opinion and its' effect on compensation and profits.

[ArcticDiver]

Gee, I didn't mean to put a stopper on the conversation.

What I was, and am, trying to do is suggest that people who the public views as professionals have less of a problem getting good pay than those who are not so viewed. Then, as a follow on, ask how we get the general public image of scuba instructors changed so they can be properly paid.

[BillZ]

Unfortunately the market price for dive training in the Seattle area has been set by UWS at $99 plus materials and other shops and independant instructors are forced to compete with this pricing. Shops/Independants can justify a higher price by providing a better quality education, smaller class sizes and additional services but you can only take this so far.

Dive shops really can't hike the price too much because there would be plenty of independant instructors who would outcompete for business.

I'd have to disagree. From a purely financal standpoint I can't see how, even with a higher price, independant instructors are able to break even on open water classes. With costs such as pool rental, purchasing/renting gear for your students, gear maintenance, air fills, and insurance there's not enough money left to pay yourself.

[ArcticDiver]

Going back over this thread and relating it back to my experience with a variety of courses I'm left with a couple questions. First of all I remember having to total up my expenses when I was certified in 1999. If memory serves it cost me $1000 which was primarily course (instructor) cost. Follow on technical instruction was, in my estimation, dirt cheap, even from independent instructors, which was most of them.

I wonder how many thousands of dollars of dive gear sold under this business model is now sitting in storage sheds and garages?

I'm wondering why people will sell their services so cheaply? I recall years ago it was common for basic flight instructors to make very little in direct pay. But, the experience they gained qualified them for highly paid careers with the airlines and other companies. With scuba I don't see that light at the end of the tunnel for these people. So, what motivates them? Are they being paid in non-cash ways, or under the table? Or, are they just not very business savvy?

[Gill Envy]

here are some opinions:
the industry is handicapped on pretty much every level: public perception, dive shop economy, instructor pay and dive boat operation.

IMHO, the Industry has a serious branding problem which significantly limits the market base. The public perceives diving to be dangerous, expensive and time consuming, and most of the inhabitants of WA state look at the water and shiver at the thought of spending extend periods of time in it. It doesn't help that the very thing folks are drawn to, the ocean ecosystem, is in dwindling supply worldwide. the sport lacks the draw to maintain the economy of scale necessary for most of the folks within the industry to really make a decent profit. Few shops can sell enough gear or instruction to do more than subsist... many who attempt to enter the industry end up loosing their shirts.

To help close the profit gap, dive shops rely on the relative abundance of instructors who are willing to undersell themselves because they are drawn more by the love of the sport than by money. The public perceives private instruction to be more risky than going through a dive shop, so private instructors have an uphill battle getting clients even if though they often offer superior service.

Another limiting factor in this industry is that in order to really enjoy diving, a person needs to be relatively proficient in it and do it relatively frequently, which is quite challenging. A relative few WA state residents overcome their aversion to dark cold water enough to become regular divers... that leaves the tropics for the rest who can overcome their fears of even warmer water and diving in general, which is a larger minority but still a minority of the public. The number of times a year someone can get on a plane and go to a diving destination is limited by time and resources. It really doesn't help that the ratio of planning, traveling, getting out on a boat to each site and dollar spent, to the time spent actually participating directly in the sport is remarkably poor. Dives are relatively short for the effort and expense required. Compare diving to surfing, rock climbing, kite boarding, sailing, golfing, biking, hiking etc, etc. ... for your investment of training and gear, you get to spend all day doing any one of these sports vs the 35-60 minutes of bottom time you get for each dive.

As for dive boat operators, they have to charge a lot and rarely make a good profit. Many go for big fancy boats not really realizing that the operation cost is going to be so high and that finding customers consistently is much more challenging than many realize.

I love diving, i'm willing to make the investment for the relatively short period of time spent under water, but many folks are not.

The above dynamics pose a serious challenge for the dive industry, even more so for the tec diving industry and we all need to be realistic about our expectations. This is a challenged industry, always has been and probably always will be.

As for a new model of business, I really like the model of small private instruction out of the home. I think more manufacturers should consider allowing private instructors to be direct dealers in their gear, allowing instructors to take advantage of low overhead to sell gear at a more reasonable price (as are the on line dealers) rather than under sell their instruction. Yes this would make it harder for the LDS but, IMHO, this is better than leaving the distribution of gear simply to the internet, which appears to be the direction of things to come.