Dog shooting in Des Moines

[CaptnJack]

Yeah anyone who thinks dog doors, fenced back yards during the day etc are a good idea should really rethink that. Our dog does not go or stay outside unattended. There's just too much "trouble" for him to potentially get into.

[spatman]

Sure, a dog "that size" is capable of inflicting injury.

any dog is capable of inflicting injury. it all rests on the owner as to whether the dog has training and the owner has control.

[Fishstiq]

Sure, a dog "that size" is capable of inflicting injury. Do you really think that was a reasonable conclusion for the officers to arrive at, after reading all this? I don't. A person "my size" can do some damage, too. But if I was hiding from the cops under a bush after being tased, they probably wouldn't be justified in shooting me. Not saying they wouldn't do so, depending on the circumstances, but at least they were reasonably sure the dog didn't have a gun.

When did I ever say I thought that was a reasonable conclusion for the officers? All I was trying to say was that a large dog of any breed could be seen to be as serious of a threat as a weapon depending on behavior and circumstances.

Let me back up here, I don't want to get off topic or start a heated argument and get this thread locked.

The point I was trying to make is that being a pet owner comes with a lot of responsibility. Certain pets, and certain breeds of pets, have extra considerations. If you make the choice to own an animal, you assume some responsibility and liability with that ownership. The police aren't the only ones who made mistakes here, and yet they are the only ones it seems who will be facing consequences. If people really want to effect changes, that's something that I think needs to be addressed as well. I apologize if I didn't convey that clearly.

[CaptnJack]

We have never recommended that dogs be allowed to run free when owners aren't home, even in fenced yards. Gates get left open, kids open gates, etc etc. Sh*t happens. Dogs can and should be kept inside while you are gone during the day, in a puppy proofed house etc. Or in a locked & secure kennel area which should have some provisions for shelter, water etc. These are not new recommendations for the NCS.

There's no doubt in my mind that the partitioning of "blame" between all parties in this specific case will occur in court.

[Joshua Smith]

The point I was trying to make is that being a pet owner comes with a lot of responsibility. Certain pets, and certain breeds of pets, have extra considerations. If you make the choice to own an animal, you assume some responsibility and liability with that ownership. The police aren't the only ones who made mistakes here, and yet they are the only ones it seems who will be facing consequences. If people really want to effect changes, that's something that I think needs to be addressed as well. I apologize if I didn't convey that clearly.

OK, fine. For the record, I own a dog. I've owned, or been around, or shared responsibility for, dogs and other pets for most of my life. I get it. The Dog in question should not have been off its property, or without a collar. At worst, the owners should have paid a fine. I bet they'd be happy to pay that fine to get their dog back.

Also for the record, I am a fan of the police, generally speaking. They do a really tough job, and I'm glad I don't have to do it- they deal with the worst 1% of the population on a daily basis, enforcing the rules that we all should have learned in kindergarten- IE, "don't take stuff that doesn't belong to you, don't hurt other people," etc.

MY point is that YOUR point- regarding consequences for the owners- is kind of lost here. Their dog was tasered repeatedly, hunted down, and executed in a disgusting display of ignorance and overreaction. Are you suggesting that maybe the owners should pay a fine as well? What, exactly, are you suggesting? I'm just guessing, here, but I'm willing to bet that they are spreading the word about NOT letting pets off your own property; and I'm also pretty sure they won't let any of their pets out of their sight for the rest of their lives. What outcome are you advocating, exactly?

[CaptnJack]

More than one of us Newfoundland owners has "discovered" a collar on our dog we didn't even realize was there! Seeing one from a distance through all that hair? Ain't happening. Many dog owners take collars off their dogs at home anyway, to avoid getting it snagged and creating a strangulation hazard. Most dogs (certainly all Newfoundlands, they are not cheap) have microchips for positive ID. We have gotten several into rescue and found their original owners through their microchips.

To give you an idea of the "hair" factor here's Luna (right, black) and Tyrone (left, grey). We lost Luna last month due to torsion (twisting) of the lung. She didn't survive the surgery attempting to fix it. In any case, they are both pretty typical. You get a sense of the hair. They are both wearing collars and tags in this picture.


Its supposed to be a double coat, air getting trapped in the inner layer. We've taken them swimming in Puget Sound, in a snow storm (for fun). Neither one got cold in over an hour of stick & bumper retrieving. We froze however lol.

[dsteding]

Great pictures Richard, we miss Luna :-(

[Fishstiq]

MY point is that YOUR point- regarding consequences for the owners- is kind of lost here.... What outcome are you advocating, exactly?

I don't have an exact outcome to advocate. I'm simply pointing out the fact that police education and training can only solve so much, and that maybe some thought should go into what can be done to help pet owners as well. There has been a complete absence of that in this thread so far. Raising pet owner awareness is a far more effective solution, IMO. It's because of this thread and this incident that my dog, as small and non-threatening as she may be, is now always on a leash outside the home when she almost never was before.

[Norris]

I kinda agree with Joe in that this discussion would not even have occured had the owners been more responsible dog owners. Being a responsible dog owner means keeping your pet safe from harm by securing its access to the world. I am a responsible dog owner and can honestly say that my wife and I spent the money and secured our yard well, and our dog has not ever escaped. We had a bigger dog and should she have gotten out I cannot say how she would have reacted. We had no way to guage her reaction to fear, uniformed officers, or being chased.
Reading into this story a little also uncovers that the neighbor acted as though he didnt know who's dog it was. Well this screams animosity to me? Maybe even has me question the dog owners a little

Is this dog kept outside to bark leaving the neighbors to resent the dog and act as they did when their first opportunity came to do something about it?

So essentially my opinion is the proactive one. It pains me to see people that allow their dogs to sit in their backyards and bark constantly with no regard for neighbors. It pains me to see other peoples dogs charge my dog as we are on a walk because their dog is not leashed. Also people that are walking their dogs with no means up picking up whatever waste their pet makes are truly self centered and irresponsible.

Do I think that the police were in the right about shooting this dog? No but they were responsible to do SOMETHING. More training perhaps, and more tools.
Would this all have been avoided with proper securing of the dog? I think so
Would this have been avoided with a better neighbor relationship? I think so

This is a discussion so I think it's healthy to visit other angles...

Bottom line, the police handled this poorely and I am wondering why animal control was called in, after the fact, to retrieve a corpse. I mean if they can show up for that part of the incident, why couldnt they show before?
BUT
The owner has a responsibilty to their pet to keep them safe; and part of that is assuring they are secured. Being a dog owner, should my dog have gotten out of my yard, was cornered and reacted the way I would think she would, and peoples well being may be in danger, eventually my fingers would point back at me for being the root cause of the situation. This is the conversation my wife and I had when securing our yard.

Yours Truly,
Rick Norris

[CaptnJack]

Even dogs who have actually bitten people are not subject to street justice in most communities. They are captured, sometimes released to their owners, required to leave the city, or possibly euthanized. All depending on the circumstances, animal control review, and judicial process. Rosie didn't even bite those who were harassing and tasering her (nor anyone else beforehand) and the 4 officers were not in imminent danger on the other side of a fence.

Your dog got loose hence you are responsible for her shooting is like saying "you chose to ride a bike you are responsible for being hit by a car".

[Norris]

Can't say I agree with that analogy. Mind you I am not arguing, just offering another view. This was avoidable.



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[Geek]

Here is another view, a mistake or accident that let the dog out don't equal a execution for the dog, ever.

[Fishstiq]

Here is another view, a mistake or accident that let the dog out don't equal a execution for the dog, ever.

Dog gets out. Dog runs in traffic. Dog gets hit by vehicle. Difference?

[nwbobber]

Here is another view, a mistake or accident that let the dog out don't equal a execution for the dog, ever.

Dog gets out. Dog runs in traffic. Dog gets hit by vehicle. Difference?

The difference is, that is an accident. Pure and simple. You don't have some one trying to use a catchpole that hasn't learned how to use it, therefore frightening the animal and creating a situation that didn't even exist before.

Since we're making up scenarios, what if the neighbor didn't recognize the dog because it had never gotten out of the yard before? I believe owners have a responsibility to keep their animals safe too but life isn't always as perfectly orchestrated as we would like. S**t happens sometimes. I don't think that is a reason to get lazy or complacent in how a police officer handles a situation with what is likely a loved member of someones family. A dog in the street being "chased by children" is NOT a vicious, aggressive dog. The dog became defensive when it was scared to death by someone who should never have been sent to handle the situation in the first place.

[spatman]

Here is another view, a mistake or accident that let the dog out don't equal a execution for the dog, ever.

Dog gets out. Dog runs in traffic. Dog gets hit by vehicle. Difference?

Vehicle wasn't intentionally trying to kill or hurt the dog. Big difference.

[Fishstiq]

Here is another view, a mistake or accident that let the dog out don't equal a execution for the dog, ever.

Dog gets out. Dog runs in traffic. Dog gets hit by vehicle. Difference?

The difference is, that is an accident. Pure and simple. You don't have some one trying to use a catchpole that hasn't learned how to use it, therefore frightening the animal and creating a situation that didn't even exist before.

Since we're making up scenarios, what if the neighbor didn't recognize the dog because it had never gotten out of the yard before? I believe owners have a responsibility to keep their animals safe too but life isn't always as perfectly orchestrated as we would like. S**t happens sometimes. I don't think that is a reason to get lazy or complacent in how a police officer handles a situation with what is likely a loved member of someones family. A dog in the street being "chased by children" is NOT a vicious, aggressive dog. The dog became defensive when it was scared to death by someone who should never have been sent to handle the situation in the first place.

Bob, we agree then. The dog was scared (aggravated, escalated, agitated, infuriated, give it a name) by people who should have never been sent to handle (or expected to correctly handle) a catch pole, ie the police, thus "frightening the animal and creating a situation that didn't even exist before.". This should have been handled by AE. Thank you.

No, we are not making up scenarios. What scenario here was made up that was not explicitly (by the op) said so? Had the dog ever gotten out? I believe I could accurately identify any dog above 100 Lbs in my neighborhood, in or out of it's yard. It's not like there's a lot of them.

In your words, shit happens sometimes. This doesn't apply to just how a cop responds. If a homeowner, parent, pet owner, or any other of the other plethora of "owners" acts or reacts, the same logic applies.

[Fishstiq]

Here is another view, a mistake or accident that let the dog out don't equal a execution for the dog, ever.

Dog gets out. Dog runs in traffic. Dog gets hit by vehicle. Difference?

Vehicle wasn't intentionally trying to kill or hurt the dog. Big difference.

Vehicle also wasn't intentionally trying to defend homeowner, children or small pet agsinst (perceived) aggressive threat.

[CaptnJack]

Can't say I agree with that analogy. Mind you I am not arguing, just offering another view. This was avoidable.

Yeah, ultimately by the guys with the guns.

The dog escaping was either accidental, or the gate was opened by children, the harassing, the tasering and the shooting was all intentional. Ironic that you guys are blaming the owners while the police are being investigated for animal cruelty under Washington State law. I know the owners are upset and blaming themselves here, but they didn't do the harassing, tasering or shooting and none of those actions were proportional, wise, rational responses to a dog running in the street. The accidental mistake was by the Wright's, the deliberative mistakes were by the police.

[spatman]

Here is another view, a mistake or accident that let the dog out don't equal a execution for the dog, ever.

Dog gets out. Dog runs in traffic. Dog gets hit by vehicle. Difference?

Vehicle wasn't intentionally trying to kill or hurt the dog. Big difference.

Vehicle also wasn't intentionally trying to defend homeowner, children or small pet agsinst (perceived) aggressive threat.

the vehicle also doesn't run the dog over after chasing it several blocks while it hides in blackberry bushes.

how far do you want to take this analogy, joe? we get your point, but using the "running out into traffic" argument just doesn't work.

[Fishstiq]

Okay, it isn't possible for me to respond or keep with all the emails and pm's I'm getting for this without completely derailing this thread. I respect what Richard is trying to do, and I believe he has his heart in the right place in trying to help our domesticated pets. Mods, with your blessing, can there be an open discussion (in a new thread) about this? Fair warning, if the people emailing me are indication, it will be fairly heated.

[spatman]

Mods, with your blessing, can there be an open discussion (in a new thread) about this? Fair warning, if the people emailing me are indication, it will be fairly heated.

another thread? about what?

richard, are you wanting some of this split off into a different thread?

[Fishstiq]

Mods, with your blessing, can there be an open discussion (in a new thread) about this? Fair warning, if the people emailing me are indication, it will be fairly heated.

another thread? about what?

richard, are you wanting some of this split off into a different thread?

about any gorramn thing matt.

[nwbobber]

Reading into this story a little also uncovers that the neighbor acted as though he didnt know who's dog it was. Well this screams animosity to me? Maybe even has me question the dog owners a little

Is this dog kept outside to bark leaving the neighbors to resent the dog and act as they did when their first opportunity came to do something about it?
Rick Norris

This is the scenario I'm talking about. I'm not saying it's not true, but who knows?

And Joe I see you get it. I hope that through this tragedy, more people will come to understand a little about how to handle animals, whether owners, or those called to handle a loose dog. I can't blame an officer who has no resources and is put in a predicament he is unable to handle correctly, but I would think that there would be some changes made. A little basic knowledge of dog behavior would not be that hard to impart. The K9 officers, I would think, could be a resource, as well as the AC officer.

[CaptnJack]

The Newfoundland Club of Seattle is working on the "basic knowledge" issue. Both for Newfoundlands and others. The first product will be a DVD similar to the training program now required in the City of Oakland (and for along time already required in the City of Seattle). Oakland started their program in cooperation with the ASPCA after officers shot a deer in someone's back yard.

[CaptnJack]

Mods, with your blessing, can there be an open discussion (in a new thread) about this? Fair warning, if the people emailing me are indication, it will be fairly heated.

another thread? about what?

richard, are you wanting some of this split off into a different thread?

I think Joe's issues would be best addressed on another board.

I posted here because this is a "hot" issue in the community. Its been on the news ~6 times in the last week.
e.g. today: http://www.highlinetimes.com/2010/11/19 ... untability

As President of the Newfoundland Club of Seattle its my role to inform the community about the Newfoundland breed. I thought there might be some interest in this situation and being able to ask questions. Even though some of the questions have been cryptic (collars, Police report, etc) I have tried to answer them with a minimum of judgement.

Discussing hypothetical partitioning of responsibility and getting struck by cars etc is really beyond the facts here.