je boyden

[Maverick]

This whole line thing is not a Joke, its like spray paint. the guy who tags the train, bridge, or fence never has to clean it up. just like the careless divers who leave line, never clean it up. so don't leave line. and if you must leave line, then leave a note so others know you will be back. Or Team C will come and get you.

VIVA TEAM C!!!

and if you are willing to hold a clean up dive, or be part of it, thats cause you feel guilty for leaving it when someone mentions it. BUSTED.

leave our waters clean, and murky, that how we like it.

BJ

[CaptnJack]

and if you are willing to hold a clean up dive, or be part of it, thats cause you feel guilty for leaving it when someone mentions it. BUSTED.

No its because Camp (? hell I dunno) is about action not bitchin.

[Nwbrewer]

The most disturbing part of this whole mess is that I'm pretty sure the line that every one agrees is litter, not a navigation line, not a survey reference, wasn't left by anybody even ON this thread. And yet, somehow, through the magic of the internet, it's divided everyone into little camps and pissed everyone off. WTF?

The major point of disagreement seems to be should we just continue to bitch about it on the internet, or should we try and clean it up? Somehow the folks willing to clean it up are being accused of leaving it behind, which makes little sense to me.

Is there anybody on here that DOES think you should just leave your line all over the Sound? No? Didn't think so.

We had a very nice hijack going there on a thread that's just going to result in nothing but more finger pointing and bad feelings. Can we go diving now?

[CaptnJack]

Can we go diving now?

Like in the water?? Don't you know its dangerous under there? Sharks & stuff. No beer either.

[BASSMAN]

Ugh! I also just read this whole thread. Why? heck if I know!

It started off interesting and then went from redundant to funny and then back to interesting and then :shootself:
I'm going back to the "Dive Reports"

[Blaiz]

Ugh! I also just read this whole thread. Why? heck if I know!

It started off interesting and then went from redundant to funny and then back to interesting and then :shootself:
I'm going back to the "Dive Reports"

Camp Hater

[H20doctor]

+1 for bigsky , he is a very nice guy, +1 for the high jacks , Love them it reminds me of old days gone by , -1 for squabbling and dive click Haters on gear configs... give me back my 8 mins lost reading this thread.. +1 for groups documenting wrecks ...

[spatman]

what a fun thread this has turned out to be. drama, intrigue, mystery, irony, humor, hijinks, camaraderie, rivalry, clarification, obfuscation...

and in and amongst it all, cyberdiver steding visits from babyland to stir things up a bit, BJ emerges caliban-like to rally with the troops, and most amazingly, richard makes a beer joke.

Like in the water?? Don't you know its dangerous under there? Sharks & stuff. No beer either.

looks like we have a long winter ahead of us.

[Sounder]

and if you are willing to hold a clean up dive, or be part of it, thats cause you feel guilty for leaving it when someone mentions it. BUSTED.

leave our waters clean, and murky, that how we like it.

BJ

Yeah, that must be it. Welcome back BJ.

[Grateful Diver]

Somebody remind me ... what were those two rules again?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[bigsky]

#1) do not leave anything behind, cave line, buddies, catheters, she-pee glue sticks, or empty beer bottles
#2) when in doubt, see rule #1

[Grateful Diver]

#3) Preaching to the choir rarely accomplishes anything positive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Maverick]

#3) Preaching to the choir rarely accomplishes anything positive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

is that why solo diving works for you? what if you are diving alone (even with AL) and you get tangled up in this line, no one is there to help you, what then? maybe all this preaching will accomplish a safer place for solo divers. Even the most nimble people cant reach all entanglements in full kit underwater, Just my opinion.

dive safe,

BJ

[Grateful Diver]

#3) Preaching to the choir rarely accomplishes anything positive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

is that why solo diving works for you? what if you are diving alone (even with AL) and you get tangled up in this line, no one is there to help you, what then? maybe all this preaching will accomplish a safer place for solo divers. Even the most nimble people cant reach all entanglements in full kit underwater, Just my opinion.

dive safe,

BJ

Here's why it doesn't work for me, Ben.

First off, I doubt that anyone reading this thread is in favor leaving ... or has ever left ... line on a wreck. Or maybe they have ... and with a different approach we could have discussed why.

This COULD HAVE been a very interesting topic, with some useful outcome ... but it was created in a way that was intentionally offensive and condescending ... pointing specifically at a group of people who were named in a video. Some of those people happen to be members here.

In that respect, it violated Calvin's second rule for posting here ... don't be a dick.

I've never ... in my life ... left an inch of line on a wreck. So I got no dog in this hunt, really. But I have seen line on wrecks ... and I don't like it anymore than you do. I seriously don't think anyone reading this thread is responsible for it, though. So I seriously doubt that bitching about it here is going to accomplish anything except to make the bitchers feel better about themselves.

That said ... as soon as I read the opening post I knew that there was no chance for a useful outcome. It seem like BigSky wasn't really interested in a constructive outcome ... more like he was just looking for a place to blow off some steam and a handy target to aim it at.

The people in that video were identified ... some are known to be members here. A more constructive approach would've been to contact one of them and ask for an explanation. But I guess it's more fun to come across like someone who knows so much more than they do, and talk down to them like they're little babies who don't know anything.

at some point during the evolution of your diving career
you might be tempted to own and utilize a reel.
this is basically a hand held wheel that holds line
much like a fishing reel. please be aware that
all reels have a little handle on the side for
reeling the line BACK UP

Anytime I read shit like that my first impulse is to write it off as the rantings of someone with a serious ego issue. If you really want to discuss something that's bothering you, that's the wrong way to start the conversation..

Then there's the rest of the rant ...

this is a small wreck in less than 35ffw
you could snorkel it. why in the f@#k would
you wrap line down both sides, along the
bottom, over to the bit, back to the line
side to side, twisted around the stern and bow,
up and down the freeboard, with a few
loops midships.
THEN LEAVE EVERY BIT OF THAT CRAP THERE!!

you cant get lost, the line does not go anywhere
no direction markers, no graduation marks.
wtf people? it is a 120 year old wooden vessel
in fresh water. if you absolutely are terrified of
losing your directions, use a reel. hell use two.
clean up after yourself. a little respect for the
marine environment we all enjoy goes along
way for future divers to find the same enjoyment

Turns out BigSky either didn't understand why that line was down there ... or he was really trying to say you should do it "his" way. I know you well enough, Ben, to know how you'd react if someone said something to you with that tone ... everybody on this board knows it wouldn't be a polite response. You know it too.

This is a useful topic. But there's right and wrong ways to approach it. All BigSky did with his rant is assure that nothing positive would come of it.

This is supposed to be a friendly board. Publicly posting a video with the names of other members, taking them to task in a demeaning manner as Bigsky did isn't very friendly. And frankly, if other members of this community had started the EXACT SAME TOPIC using the EXACT SAME LANGUAGE, this thread would've been shut down long ago. We've all seen it happen. But some members seem to get more latitude to use insulting language than other members.

That's what's really bothering me.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[spatman]

And frankly, if other members of this community had started the EXACT SAME TOPIC using the EXACT SAME LANGUAGE, this thread would've been shut down long ago. We've all seen it happen. But some members seem to get more latitude to use insulting language than other members.

That's what's really bothering me.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

like it or not, the members who generally don't cause problems do get some latitude. when it becomes a continuing attitude or M.O. is when things get shut down.

don't make this issue about the moderators or how this board is run, bob.

[Grateful Diver]

And frankly, if other members of this community had started the EXACT SAME TOPIC using the EXACT SAME LANGUAGE, this thread would've been shut down long ago. We've all seen it happen. But some members seem to get more latitude to use insulting language than other members.

That's what's really bothering me.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

like it or not, the members who generally don't cause problems do get some latitude. when it becomes a continuing attitude or M.O. is when things get shut down.

don't make this issue about the moderators or how this board is run, bob.

It's not at all about the moderators ... it wasn't my intent to imply so. Every moderator on this board is someone I consider a friend.

But thank you for sharing why the differences occur.

My response is about the fact that I found the initial post to be really insulting ... and a contradiction of the friendly atmosphere I have gotten used to here. Frankly, some of the support for the OP surprises me.

If you want to discuss a problem like line on the wrecks, insulting and demeaning other members isn't a very good way to get anything done about it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[mattwave]

Back on track, someone who has read or commented on this thread knows who left the line or left the line themselves, man or woman up and say that you did or know who did and either explain and pay respects or declare mutiny and tell all the camps to piss off. "Or" bicker, whip it out, and declare yours bigger than theirs. Personally I know that Paul is bigger than me and if I pissed him off by leaving the line, I would excuse my action, remove the line and avoid a fight I could not win.

[Grateful Diver]

Back on track, someone who has read or commented on this thread knows who left the line or left the line themselves, man or woman up and say that you did or know who did and either explain and pay respects or declare mutiny and tell all the camps to piss off. "Or" bicker, whip it out, and declare yours bigger than theirs. Personally I know that Paul is bigger than me and if I pissed him off by leaving the line, I would excuse my action, remove the line and avoid a fight I could not win.

Lynne answered in the second reply why the line was down there ... Laurynn elaborated a few replies later. Who put it there, and why, has been well-established.

It's an active survey ... which AFAIK is a legitimate reason for it to be there.

Seems to me this probably has more to do with "turf wars" than anything else ... like the nonsense in Lake Washington a few years back ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[mattwave]

Who gets to decide what is legitimate? How many "years" does it remain active?
Turf wars lol, who won that one?

[Joshua Smith]

And frankly, if other members of this community had started the EXACT SAME TOPIC using the EXACT SAME LANGUAGE, this thread would've been shut down long ago. We've all seen it happen. But some members seem to get more latitude to use insulting language than other members.

That's what's really bothering me.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

like it or not, the members who generally don't cause problems do get some latitude. when it becomes a continuing attitude or M.O. is when things get shut down.

don't make this issue about the moderators or how this board is run, bob.

It's not at all about the moderators ... it wasn't my intent to imply so. Every moderator on this board is someone I consider a friend.

But thank you for sharing why the differences occur.

My response is about the fact that I found the initial post to be really insulting ... and a contradiction of the friendly atmosphere I have gotten used to here. Frankly, some of the support for the OP surprises me.

If you want to discuss a problem like line on the wrecks, insulting and demeaning other members isn't a very good way to get anything done about it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, I've tried to explain a different perspective on this to you via PMs, but I feel compelled to spell it out again, here in the open.

Your first concern when you contacted me WAS about the Moderators- you thought that I was giving my dive buddy a pass- and I pointed out that I stepped down as a mod back in early September, and that out of the rest of the Mods- only John has even MET Paul, although I don't believe that they have ever dived together. So that theory doesn't hold water. I'm 100% sure that if some one-any one- else had posted what Paul did, the current mods wouldn't have censored it. Because it's NOT a violation of rule #1 to get mad at the proliferation of line on shipwrecks.

Secondly- Paul's (Bigsky's) tone, as you refer to it- is simply his writing style. Look up his post history- that's how he writes. It's quite unique- almost like haiku.

Third- Paul went for a dive. He saw the Je Boyden with line left on it. He had no way of knowing that this was part of a survey. He went home and found a video of the wreck with line on it, and he posted about it. He never accused Lauryn, DIR divers, UTD divers, or any individual or group of leaving line on wrecks. But somehow- and I still can't figure out how- it became a DIR thread.

Fourth- this whole fuss is a perfect example of why I started to hate being a mod here. It's stupid, and the first thing everyone starts whispering about is how unfair the mods are. Frankly, the job sucks. It really doesn't matter who does it, SOMEONE is going to start bitching about HOW they do it. It's a lose/lose proposition.

Fifth- I'm against people leaving crap in the water. And I'm really sick to death of internet drama.

[Grateful Diver]

It's funny how out of a long post that I put a lot of thought into, you guys took one sentence I wrote and turned it into being about the mods.

Yeah, I questioned why some folks are treated differently. Matt answered that question, and I accept his answer as legit. So it's not at all about the mods. It's about the appearance of a lack of even-handedness. The explanation is simple enough ... and reasonable.

But what about the other 95% of what I wrote? I thought we were supposed to be friendly here.

Paul didn't say squat about "other wrecks" ... his post was, strictly, about one wreck ... and a video from the "other camp".

This thread was MEANT to be divisive.

... and by God it worked ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Grateful Diver]

Who gets to decide what is legitimate? How many "years" does it remain active?

The video's from less than three weeks ago ...

Turf wars lol, who won that one?

Nobody ... no one ever does ... that's why it's nonsense.

Dive politics sux ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Joshua Smith]

I give up. Uncle. Mayday. Broken Arrow. Code blue.

[mattwave]

Cant we all just not leave line around a wreck??
Survey a wreck in 35' of water, can't the surveyors lay and clean each dive??
Can't we just put the gloves on and solve this Turf War??

[mattwave]

I personally know of a few wreck that have had lines around them for "years"