Where to go from here?

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Zen Diver
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by Zen Diver »

Well, ok, I'll bite...

I am an instructor and found the bulk of my diving skill and knowledge came from diving with people more highly skilled than I and/or more experienced or differently experienced than I. I had about 600 dives before becoming a DM, and two years later became an instructor. Becoming an instructor does not necessarily make you a better diver, it helps make you a better teacher and coach. I found more personal growth in terms of skills and foundations in taking more classes at higher levels, such as rec trimix, advanced nitrox, deco procedures, caverns etc. I found it provided a good experience base and knowledge base, and the challenge I was looking for. Advanced classes force you to examine your practice and the "why's" of what you do, not just the "how's."

I'm not knocking becoming an instructor, by any means, just be aware of what it is. If you are looking to be able to have more control in your classes, then go ahead. If you are looking for more personal growth and challenge, consider tech/advanced training. Or heck, consider both, as I've done. Both are rewarding.

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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by Rockfish »

When I was a DM I was in the same situation that you are now. I was doing 75 - 125 dives a year and my skills leveled off. I found that I was not growing by just being a DM. I decided that becoming an instructor was a lifestyle choice that I did not want to make. It requires a lot of time for little pay. People who become instructors like teachers have to have a real passion for what they are doing because they are both low paying jobs. I chose to go the technical diver route. I had to stretch my comfort level and expand my skills which I think has made me a better diver. Since then I have found that I enjoy my diving a lot more. You might look into taking a GUE Fundamentals course and see how you like it or try a Rec Triox course. Good Luck.

Mike
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Joshua Smith
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by Joshua Smith »

BlackToe wrote:I need advice from some of the old salts here.

I've been DM'ing for about a year now, and I dive about 130 or so times a year. My air consumption, buoyancy, gear config, knowledge level, etc. are about as good as they're going to get, given the type of diving I usually do (<70min, <130fsw). In short, I feel like I've become a very competent "recreational diver".

I certainly do NOT think I know everything, and by no means do I think I'm some kind of great diver (contrary to what my regular buddies might say - heh heh). What I'm trying to convey is that my diving skills haven't gotten significantly stronger in the last six months, and I believe it's because I haven't been sufficiently challenged. This makes me think it's time to take the next step.

At this point, there are two obvious paths in front of me: learn tech diving or become an instructor.

Becoming an instructor would certainly be a challenge -- I've worked with enough students to know what that would probably be like. However, I feel like I should develop my own skills well beyond what would be required to churn out OW divers before accepting full responsibility for students.

I don't know much about tech diving besides what can be gleaned from books like Deep Descent, Shadow Divers, and Caverns Measureless to Man. Nor do I have a burning desire to go to 300fsw or dive for 3 hours. What *does* appeal to me is the high degree of competence and attention to detail required to do dives like that, as well as the challenge involved in getting there.

I'd like to hear from some of you who have ventured down either (or both) of these paths. I especially like to hear from someone who once felt like I do, and how you now feel about the choices you've made to further your diving education.

What a great question!

I, personally, have never had any desire to be an instructor. I admire those that choose that path, though- I have had some great teachers, and I owe a lot to them. If you think that's the path you want to follow, more power to you!

I knew, even before I ever took a breath underwater, that I wanted to tech dive. I recently completed my full CCR trimix class, and I have a fist full of certification cards to prove it. But one of my favorite classes, ever, was advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures. That class, more than any other one I have taken, really opened my eyes, and changed how I looked at diving forever. The class will certify you to, I think, 150 feet, but it's not about depth, it's about deco, and how to manage it using nitrox blends up to 100% 02. I would recommend it to anyone who dives a lot, whether or not they were looking to go really deep- it gives you some excellent tools that any serious diver could use.
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Joshua Smith
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by Joshua Smith »

BlackToe wrote:
Nailer99 wrote:I recently completed my full CCR trimix class, and I have a fist full of certification cards to prove it. But one of my favorite classes, ever, was advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures.
I remember you talking about this when we happened to be on a Bandito charter together (you also gave Jackie the CCR 101 course in case you started convulsing!). I enjoyed listening to you talk about tech and CCR without the typical ego many "advanced" divers have. You piqued my interest in CCR that day, but I'm a long ways from taking that plunge. =)

Advanced Nitrox sounds like a good first step since I'm already Nitrox certified. Is there a recommended progression of courses to full tech listed somewhere so I can research this further and get an idea what timeframe and cost is involved?
I remember that charter! Thanks for the compliment! As for your question, it all depends on the training agency and instructor involved. I can't really recommend PADI for any tech stuff, because their DSAT/ TEC REC program doesn't seem to have taken root here in this area, and I don't know any instructors personally.
For local tech instruction on open circuit, there are a lot of very good instructors available- we are blessed with more than a few good choices in that arena! PM me and tell me a little bit about what you might want to do in the future, and I'll try to hook you up with an instructor that might be a good match for you!

-Josh
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LCF
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by LCF »

Well, this won't be a popular answer. But you're an experienced recreational diver who feels his skills haven't been challenged . . . I would recommend taking GUE Fundamentals. It's not a tech class, and you don't even have to consider technical diving to take it. It can be done in a single tank. But it will raise the bar on skills and awareness and diving as a team. Even instructors find this class challenging (NWGratefulDiver took it as an instructor, and found it well worth while). Our local GUE instructor, Steve White, is a good guy and a good teacher and very invested and devoted to his students.

Fundamentals asks you to maintain excellent buoyancy and horizontal trim while handling various issues (simple ones, like mask clearing and replacement, and air sharing). It teaches non-silting propulsion techniques (ideal for silty Puget Sound bottoms) and surface marker buoy deployment (useful for boat dives). There is a tremendous focus on situational awareness and buddy skills. You will come out of the class a better diver, even if you do not ever intend to pursue more GUE training, or follow the DIR methods of diving.
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enchantmentdivi
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by enchantmentdivi »

Jenn brings out can-o-worms, gets can opener, begins to crack it open....

If you are thinking about a becoming an instructor, think long and hard about why you would be doing it. Over the years, I have seen people become instructors for three reasons:

1) It's the next rung on the ladder. Been a DM/Dive Con and that's where you go next, right?
2) Status. Power. Ego. (enough said, although SO much could be said here)
3) Actually truly wants to teach scuba...wants to grow new divers....show everybody the underwater world.....etc.

For some, all three are wrapped up into one. But, in my opinion, to be an instructor, it should be #3 and only #3 that pushes you to become one. Think about the instructors you know. I bet you a buck you can figure out which reason they became instructors and which category they fit in. I think it's unfortunate that most fit into #1 and #2...........

After dive conning for several years, I had some of the same thoughts you are having now...although becoming an instructor has never been a consideration. Don't want to do it...no way, no how, not gonna make me, nuh uh. I also have absolutely no desire to branch into technical diving. A pony bottle is about as technical as I get.

So, this may not sound like much, but I took a class that was a kick in the pants and was something so totally different from anything I'd ever learned before. I took a basic "search and recovery" class. Now, stop...don't poo poo it. It was flipping FUN!!!!! And, I can recommend a great instructor that you already know.

Have fun on your quest for your next step and do let us all know what you decide.
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by Sounder »

I agree with several of the points here, especially those who are talking about teaching versus becoming a stronger diver. Instructors are not the best divers. Sure, there are some rockstar divers out there who happen to be instructors, but I've seen many instructors teaching classes who were definitely not the strongest diver on the beach.

I second the "Fundies" with Steve White or "NAUI Intro" with Brian W (BDub on this board) suggestion - it'll challenge you and make you a stronger diver.
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by LCF »

Well, if you do take Fundies, I think you'll find it's not difficult at all to find people to do skills dives with! Almost everybody who takes that class comes out with a new standard set for themselves, and a determination to meet it. And there are quite a few of us around who have done it, and enjoy getting out and doing some practice dives for our own benefit, as well as helping post-Fundies folks.
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by CaptnJack »

You seem like you might be in a rut, doing the "same" diving over and over. How about these options?
Option 1: Skip the classes and spend your money on travel, charters and such.
Option 2: Take GUE Fundementals locally or try going to FL and taking a cavern class, both would be "new & different" and challenging.

I don't think you should pursue the instructor thing. You should be really motivated by the basics of the basics and those actually sounds like what you have too much of right now.
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by CaptnJack »

Chac Mool is actually one of the more "plain" cavern/caves down there!! The DIR-MX http://www.dir-mexico.com/home.htm%20guys are really great and you'd be set for cave training after Fundementals. That would be a very worthy goal and really "up" your local diving too.
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by Grateful Diver »

BlackToe wrote:I need advice from some of the old salts here.

I've been DM'ing for about a year now, and I dive about 130 or so times a year. My air consumption, buoyancy, gear config, knowledge level, etc. are about as good as they're going to get, given the type of diving I usually do (<70min, <130fsw). In short, I feel like I've become a very competent "recreational diver".

I certainly do NOT think I know everything, and by no means do I think I'm some kind of great diver (contrary to what my regular buddies might say - heh heh). What I'm trying to convey is that my diving skills haven't gotten significantly stronger in the last six months, and I believe it's because I haven't been sufficiently challenged. This makes me think it's time to take the next step.

At this point, there are two obvious paths in front of me: learn tech diving or become an instructor.

Becoming an instructor would certainly be a challenge -- I've worked with enough students to know what that would probably be like. However, I feel like I should develop my own skills well beyond what would be required to churn out OW divers before accepting full responsibility for students.

I don't know much about tech diving besides what can be gleaned from books like Deep Descent, Shadow Divers, and Caverns Measureless to Man. Nor do I have a burning desire to go to 300fsw or dive for 3 hours. What *does* appeal to me is the high degree of competence and attention to detail required to do dives like that, as well as the challenge involved in getting there.

I'd like to hear from some of you who have ventured down either (or both) of these paths. I especially like to hear from someone who once felt like I do, and how you now feel about the choices you've made to further your diving education.
Going the tech route will definitely challenge you to improve your skills.

I decided to take DIR-F while I was taking my instructor class ... because I realized that the instructor class wasn't going to make me the diver I felt I needed to be in order to teach properly. Looking back on it, I think it was the right decision.

Keep in mind that DIR-F is not a technical class, however ... it focuses on developing the solid skills you need before embarking down the tech path. There is another option available here in the PNW that wasn't when I took DIR-F ... which is the NAUI Intro to Tech. There are several competent instructors teaching it ... my preference would be BDub or vbcoachchris. To practice full disclosure, both of those guys are good friends of mine ... vbcoachchris is also my own tech instructor, and I would heartily recommend him to anyone.

Personally, I prefer NAUI's progression to GUE's ... mainly because of the availability of resources (local instructors) and the fact that it'll get you out doing the dives, rather than spending several months practicing skills in Cove 2 in order to pass the class first. In that respect, I think GUE's just a bit more anal than they need to be about quite a few of their requirements ... and as a result they'll turn out a very well-skilled diver (eventually) who lacks a lot of knowledge that you can only really get by diving.

Whatever you decide, I applaud you for wanting to improve your skills. I've met a few instructors who don't have what I'd consider adequate diving skills ... and unfortunately, the students they turn out are a reflection of their emphasis on standards rather than skills. Remember that when you teach, your students will be doing their best to emulate what they see you doing ... so if your diving skills are solid, you're a lot more likely to turn out solid divers in those who come to you to learn.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by CaptnJack »

As Bob said, if you are interetsed in local stuff I would look into Naui-tech as an alternative.

If you are interested in MX caves then GUE gets you access to the 3 best instructors down there. While there are other good instructors in MX, Steve Boegarts comes to mind, DIR-MX gets you a whole slew of similarly trained cave buddies to hook up with down there.

Here are some videos from MX - I'm actually in a couple :)
http://www.vimeo.com/MexicoCaveDiving

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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by Grateful Diver »

As with anything else, "best" is a subjective term ... as it applies to dive instruction, it really depends on what you want to know, and how you prefer to learn ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by LCF »

Well, one of the things about cave training is that you have to go somewhere to dive caves. We have a surprisingly large group of cave divers in Seattle, a lot of whom are GUE-trained. It makes it a little easier to find buddies to make a trip with, particularly when you add in the Monterey GUE-trained folks as well. We have managed to find people with whom to dive in Florida, but it's been a much harder project, because most of the west coast cave divers I know prefer Mexico.
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by CaptnJack »

Grateful Diver wrote:"best" is a subjective term ...
e.g. Considering the number of already full-cave trained people that have gone to Danny for "retraining" or "additional" training, its safe to say he's considered pretty high end by the cave diving community.

Taking GUE fundementals in MX is actually pretty cool. I didn't, but have met several people down there who have or were enrolled. Its 5 days, a couple in the cenote basins and then a few more in the caverns and ocean applying the skills in the real world. It seemed to be a pretty cool vacation (i.e. no super long exhausting days etc). It is pretty expensive unfortunately.
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Zen Diver
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by Zen Diver »

I actually know quite a few west coast cave divers who are non-GUE trained. I did NSS-CDS and will be doing NACD this fall, both fine training agencies also. My instructor wrote several of the manuals for both agencies and is very well know in cave circles.

Another avenue that may interest you is in critter ID/scientific diving. I know when I was needing a challenge one time I did one of the best things ever for my diving; took Janna's Fish/Invert ID classes. Changed the way I dive and look at things, certainly gave me cause to work on buoyancy skills, gave me increased reasons for carrying a camera, and got me published (just got my official notice from Paul Humann that he's using two of my photos in the new Coastal Fish ID book, woo-hoo!).

And, I second Jenn's recommendation on the Search and Recovery class, it's definitely a kick a$$ class and worth having, espeically for a DM/Divecon.

-Valerie
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by CaptnJack »

BTW the Seattle aquarium often needs volunteer divers. I'm not saying it will make a huge difference with in-water skills (might help a little, just the routine diving). But the general Puget Sound and animal knowledge might be interesting. Warning there's a pile of required and encouraged training seminars. There would be new UW tasks and equipment to learn too.
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Joshua Smith
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by Joshua Smith »

That's the thing about diving: there's always a new challenge to try! Tech diving, to me, seems limitless in the challenges it offers, but there's critter watching, photography/ videography, DPVs, justifying really expensive gear purchases, and finding parking at popular shore diving sites in the summer.....the list of challenges goes on and on.....
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by LCF »

I'm sorry, but I have to take exception to something which has been said. There is NOTHING at all about Fundies that requires you to spend months in Cove 2, and not doing real dives. Whether you pass or you provisional, you have every option to go do all the diving you want of whatever sort you like; most of the skills can be practiced as a part of ordinary, recreational dives. The one thing that a lot of us DO go and specifically practice are ascents, simply because, if you habitually shore dive, direct ascents aren't often done.

It IS true that people who are in the limbo period between taking the class and passing it often get together for some practice dives. We have the benefit of feedback from one another and some concentrated time spent on skills. It pays off, too.

And we have a local Fundies instructor who is quite available to help support his students.

I am NOT saying that NAUI Intro to Tech isn't a perfectly good option. I'm simply saying that it's not preferable for the reasons that were stated.
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Burntchef
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by Burntchef »

i did the naui phase1 with ken g here and matt from nwsd as our instructor. shoot me a pm with your phone number if you want all the details.
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by Peter Guy »

"Where to go from here?" is a great question and one I've played with myself. I'll provide a little history:

First certified in 1967 -- re-certified in 2005 (PADI OW/AOW). After AOW I believe I was a "competent" recreational diver and that was my goal. Only one more class for me, Rescue and a few "specialties" to get my "Master Diver" cert. That all changed when my wife took DIR-F (which, by the way, I pooh-poohed up one side and down the other). She convinced me to take "Essentials of DIR" which led to Recreational Diving II -- which then convinced me that I really didn't know much at all. From there it has been all downhill -- Now I have a DIR-F tech cert; TDI Full Cave; Naui Heliox; and I often forget, my PADI DM.

BUT, I'm not at all sure I'd recommend doing any of those classes (well, in fact, I'd recommend doing all of them, especially if you like the Cenotes!) -- but from what you've written, I'd go another route.

DON'T TAKE A CLASS --- MAKE A CLASS FOR YOURSELF!

I mentioned that I have a Naui Heliox card -- but that was the end result of working with an instructor (one who happens to be a VERY good instructor, certainly the best one, the most demanding one, I've seen, Andrew Georgitsis) who was hired to "work with me" (and my wife and another) just to "work on some skills" and "polish us up." In other words, we just bought his time and let him watch us, identify weaknesses, and then let him give us pointers/methods to strengthen our skills. At the end of the time (this was done over three weekends over a period of 4 or 5 months), he decided we'd "passed a class" and we got the Heliox cards.

Years ago when I first learned to ski, at the end of the season my instructor told me that there was no reason to take any more classes. Instead, when I felt that I had plateaued that I should take a private lesson. The instructor would see where I needed help and then give me some specifics to work on. She was absolutely correct.

In my other sporting endeavor (dressage), we don't take classes -- we take lessons. Sometimes they are structured, more often than not they aren't. The instructor sees what you are doing and gives you suggestions on how to do better. It is quite normal for a group of people to get together to bring an expert in to work with everyone on what their issues might be.

So, my suggestion, find an instructor who you think is VERY good -- hire her for a few hours and say, Evaluate me and help me get out of my rut and be a "better" diver.
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by Grateful Diver »

LCF wrote:I'm sorry, but I have to take exception to something which has been said. There is NOTHING at all about Fundies that requires you to spend months in Cove 2, and not doing real dives. Whether you pass or you provisional, you have every option to go do all the diving you want of whatever sort you like; most of the skills can be practiced as a part of ordinary, recreational dives. The one thing that a lot of us DO go and specifically practice are ascents, simply because, if you habitually shore dive, direct ascents aren't often done.

It IS true that people who are in the limbo period between taking the class and passing it often get together for some practice dives. We have the benefit of feedback from one another and some concentrated time spent on skills. It pays off, too.

And we have a local Fundies instructor who is quite available to help support his students.

I am NOT saying that NAUI Intro to Tech isn't a perfectly good option. I'm simply saying that it's not preferable for the reasons that were stated.
Wasn't talking about Fundies, specifically ... but as you know, I waited a year for my instructor to come back for a re-eval before finally taking the class over again with a different instructor. That was before Steve's time, granted. However ... I DO know someone who told me recently he'd been practicing for two years to pass Tech 1.

In that same time period I've taken NAUI Advanced Nitrox/Deco/Helitrox (NAUI's Tech 1 equivalent), Trimix 1 and Trimix 2 ... and logged between 70 and 80 tech dives. And one thing I learned is that all the practice in the world won't get you half the education you'll get by going out diving.

Fundies is a great class ... and Steve's an awesome diver and instructor ... but if you're planning to progress beyond that into the tech level it's important to know that very few people actually pass those classes without significant time and effort betwen first taking it, and then getting a re-evaluation. Some of it's valuable ... but I've come to the conclusion that much of it amounts to sweating the small stuff, and reaches a point of diminishing returns.

How long, Lynne, did it take you to pass Rec Triox? What were the things that kept you from passing? I'm not saying those things aren't important ... but they shouldn't be show-stoppers. Lots of people learn best by doing ... I know I do.

GUE's a great educational system ... no doubt about it. And it produces awesome divers. But it's worth giving some thought to how awesome you really need to be before actually getting a chance to get some real-world experience, because we have a growing cadre of good to exceptional alternatives here in the Seattle area.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by Joshua Smith »

There's good TDI/ IANTD training here, too.





I'm just sayin'.






Lotta options.













Including rebreathers! :supz:
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by Joshua Smith »

Grateful Diver wrote:And one thing I learned is that all the practice in the world won't get you half the education you'll get by going out diving...... ... but I've come to the conclusion that much of it amounts to sweating the small stuff, and reaches a point of diminishing returns.
So true. I've come to the conclusion that a lot of divers don't practice skills enough, (myself included, unfortunately....gonna try and work on that more) but that others overcompensate by doing too many skills dives, and not enough actual dives. Ballance is needed here, just like every other aspect of life. You gotta have core skills, even for easy recreational dives, but if it's not fun, why do it at all? If you're not seeing and doing new stuff in different places from time to time, you get bored and you quit diving.......and if you lack survival skills, you might pay a very high price if the unexpected or unplanned for should happen.
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Re: Where to go from here?

Post by dsteding »

Nailer99 wrote:
So true. I've come to the conclusion that a lot of divers don't practice skills enough, (myself included, unfortunately....gonna try and work on that more) but that others overcompensate by doing too many skills dives, and not enough actual dives. Ballance is needed here, just like every other aspect of life. You gotta have core skills, even for easy recreational dives, but if it's not fun, why do it at all? If you're not seeing and doing new stuff in different places from time to time, you get bored and you quit diving.......and if you lack survival skills, you might pay a very high price if the unexpected or unplanned for should happen.
Balance is something an individual diver needs to create for themselves, although a good instructor will provide guidance in terms of how to get there.

My perspective:

A bad agency/instructor won't emphasize skills enough, at the other end of the spectrum is an instructor that will emphasize skills too much at the expense of actually thinking underwater. Both are problematic, but in different ways.

Personally, I'd rather have an instructor err on the too much skills side of things-if your skills are solid, your situtational awareness will eventually grow and the thinking will happen. Instructors that turn out students with insufficient skills are the absolute worst thing out there, because their students end up doing dives that they believe are safe, when in reality they objectively probably are not ready for such dives. Because of the issues of primacy, the diver advances far along the path and still doesn't know what it takes to be safe on a dive. This is especially true in the tech diving world.

Honestly, there are way too many instructors out there that are punching cards too quickly. To loop back to the original question of where to go next, do some due dilligence on an instructor and ask them how they develop skills and what their coursework looks like. Also do some due diligence on what the base level of skills are (in your mind, based on your research) for the dives you want to do. Assuming you want to be a safe diver, look for someone that teaches more than a checklist in terms of skills, that doesn't promise passing in a certain amount of time, and that is also out doing the dives you want to do.

Then, go diving with the possible instructor or with some of their students. See if you want to dive that way, see if their skills line up with what you think are sufficient, and only then sign up for a class. Also, solicit feedback as you've done here.

Ultimately, the responsibility to be a safe diver is yours alone. That means being an educated consumer of dive training-which can be difficult when you don't know what you should know. Good for you for posting here, this is one good way to get educated.

If you have more questions, pm me.

-Doug
Fishstiq wrote:
To clarify.........

I cannot stress enough that this is MY PROBLEM.
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