here we go, again

[Jan K]

Another potential lost dive site on Whidbey - Langley Tire Reef.
http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/whidbey/swr ... 09317.html

[Dusty2]

Seems to be a never ending battle. I knew the tires were slated to go and I don't think we can stop that. It's one of those pet projects of the environmentalists and of course the boating community has no interest besides getting there marina. Myabe some one could put a bug in Mukilteo's Mayor's ear and have him talk to the Langley Mayor.

[Pez7378]

I wrote a letter to seitle@portofsouthwhidbey.com and council@langleywa.org. I mentioned our recent work with Mukilteo. I'm not a big fan of the Tires at langley, but I do enjoy the diving there.

[CaptnJack]

Seems to be a never ending battle. I knew the tires were slated to go and I don't think we can stop that. It's one of those pet projects of the environmentalists and of course the boating community has no interest besides getting there marina. Myabe some one could put a bug in Mukilteo's Mayor's ear and have him talk to the Langley Mayor.

I'm not sure why you're blaming "environmentalists". The Port of South Whidbey has had grandiose expansion plans there since the dawn of time. Opening up the rather uninviting stockage to create a yachty "destination". Divers simply don't spend enough money in Langley to rank.

[girldiver]

Pardon me...I'm going to rant. (If you only like me for my cheery disposition...please do not continue...)

This is definitely about money. And my concern (though I may get blasted for it...) is that the reason we are losing our dive sites is because instead of making Washington a SCUBA TOURIST DESTINATION...we focus on plant and marine life.

Yes...we want plant and marine life to look at. That's a given...we're divers. But realistically, as much as we'd LIKE to have a ship to dive in our backyard...it ain't happening anytime soon.

The dive population feeds the B.C. Tourism industry. People in B.C. (non-diving making money off of the tourist people) would be up in arms if their dive sites were to be shut down or taken out all in a two - three year time span. It would hurt their bottom line.

We've spent no time in developing our region as a dive destination, so there's not enough money coming in to justify listening to local divers grumble about their shore entry dive sites. Really...a dive costs the average diver...$5? If we add in gear depreciation...maybe $10. Oh...and Starbucks. $5. Yeah, we're not major contributors. And...when divers are in the area, NOT spending their money...they are also using restrooms and showers.

If we, as a collective group...shops, clubs, charters and WSA...focus on keeping the tourist dollars on this side of the border (no passport needed!!) then places like Langley (which, coupled with Keystone could truly BE a dive destination) would be doing everything they could to enhance the dive sites....not rid themselves of them.

When we start adding to the non-dive shop commerce of the area by a million dollars a year or more, then we have better footing to stand on. Yes...we need fish habitat. And there are great entities out there who are working hard for the health of the Puget Sound. WSA is putting reef balls and artificial reefs down...taking care of that piece of the pie. Maybe I'm missing the organization...but WHO is promoting the sport of scuba in Washington to tourists?? We're a cold water destination. AND...half of the country dives in a cold water environment on any given day...but not surrounded by the beauty we have here. We really DO rock...and we need to invite the rest of the world to see how much.

It's about money. How much we attract. And right now...B.C. is getting the lion's share.

Rant over. Time for a pedicure.

[nwscubamom]

Good rant, Cindy and some very good points!

It was interesting in our latest Mukilteo-divesite-saving effort and in subsequent newspaper articles how City Council members didn't realize how far away divers come to dive in the area. And we're talking more than just the $5 cups of coffee consumed - divers from neighboring states spending the night there. They had no idea!

I was thrilled to see a really neat poster that's in the works, that Misty Klotz of WDFW is heading up in conjunction with many Washington state dive folks - Jack Connick really sticking out with his excellent photography on the poster. It's very much a 'tourism' slanted poster. Very cool!

I know that WSA has been working from the education standpoint of letting Washington legislators know that Washington *IS* a dive destination, and that tourism is potentially big $$. But, the process is agonizingly slow - especially when you're dealing with an all-volunteer board, no full-time staff, and no income other than a few bucks here and there. And the ideal, of course, would be to have a ferry sunk as a Washington icon dive destination, but like you said - that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. <sigh>

Anyway, good input.

- Janna :-)

[Scuba Scott]

And don't forget the awsome 5 foot viz.

[CaptnJack]

You nailed it Cindy.

1 <small> yacht in Langely marina:
moorage fee, $1.50ft x 35ft = $52.5
fuel $40+
Langley Inn for 2 with wine = $125
Total = >$200, ca-ching!

Divers:
2x $5 lattes and a bunch of sand in their bathrooms

Some of this is about perception and awareness that people from Idaho do visit Langley (I was stunned to meet a group there once) but when the rather unsophisticated Port of South Whidbey runs "the numbers" they don't align on the side of divers.

[Nwbrewer]

I'm not a fan of the tire reef either, but it's a rather large site, perhaps convincing them that there is room for both? Get everybody's money.

[airsix]

Cindy, I think you very clearly outlined the cold hard facts. Yours is one of the most useful and accurate statements I've seen on this board. We need to get action by showing decision-makers how these issues affect THEIR interests, not primarily focusing on our own interests. "Help me help you" gets a much better response than "help me".

-Ben

[lizard0924]

And the ideal, of course, would be to have a ferry sunk as a Washington icon dive destination, but like you said - that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. <sigh>

Anyway, good input.

- Janna :-)

Judging by the allegedly decrepit condition of many of the ferries, isn't it only a matter of time before one sinks on its own?

Seriously, though, I'm relatively new to PNW diving and I've tried to get involved. Joined WSA (but aside from a discount coupon for the dive expo, haven't heard from them), active in my local dive club, etc. I like diving here and I'd love to do more to get the word out about the area as a dive destination....but I'm really not sure how to do that. (It's hard to convince my dive friends in warm-water locales that it IS really fun to dive here. They hear about 55 degree water temps and cringe!)

I suspect there are others just like me out there....willing to help, but unsure where to channel their skills and energy.

[Pez7378]

My letter was a tad BEER induced, but I basically made the same points as above while indicating that I didn't agree with the Boats vs. Divers spin from the paper. Here were the responses I recieved from the Port Commissioner and the City Council Member:

Dear Mr. Lopez,

I am afraid I was misunderstood. My comment was not about boats and divers in general, but to indicate that divers cannot be in the waters inside a marina's navigation and docking space. This is an obvious safety issue and I know of no marina that permits divers or swimmers in these areas. The Port, of course, is hoping to create an area where divers can safely operate. It is unfortunate that we will lose the artificial reef and its interesting flora and fauna created by the sinking of the old tire breakwater, but the Port Commission has discussed this extensively in the past and is looking for ways to re-establish the reef environment as a destination for divers.. We hope that the dive community will assist us in bringing this about and Mr.Sparkman is aware of this..

Thanks for writing. All suggestions from the dive community are welcomed.

Rolf Seitle

Dear Mr. Lopez,

I would concur with Rolf about the way the exchange was reported in the paper.

The diver's voices have been heard by the Port, and as Rolf has responded, the Port is viewed by those closest to this at the moment as being committed to ongoing diving in Langley.

As both a diver and a city council member with a role in promoting economic development here, I'm committed to making Langley the premier dive destination in Puget Sound.

As Rolf has indicated, the Port, and the City, will need the assistance of the dive community to make this happen.

I've been taking steps recently to help organize the dive community in an effort to Save Langley Diving. Again, to emphasize, at this stage it's not an effort to convince the Port of economic benefits of diving to Langley, and South Whidbey. They get it.

This effort that I'm starting is to organize the dive community in a grassroots effort that will be instrumental in everything from helping to raise or find funding, to eventually helping to install and maintain the new dive site.

I attended the Northwest SCUBA Show weekend before last and had sign up lists in 3 locations. We have well over 100 divers signed up to begin receiving updates about this project. With your permission, I'd like to add your name to that list.

Thanks for expressing your support.

Best regards,
Russell

[spatman]

I attended the Northwest SCUBA Show weekend before last and had sign up lists in 3 locations. We have well over 100 divers signed up to begin receiving updates about this project. With your permission, I'd like to add your name to that list.

anyone know how other folks can sign up for this list?

[russellfsm]

Greetings, all:

My name is Russell Sparkman. I'm new to the forum.

I'm the diver and City Council member for Langley who is referred to in an earlier reply in this thread.

Here are some essentials I'd like members of the NWDC forum to be aware of, re the Langley Tire Reef and the future of diving in Langley:

1. The City of Langley is enthusiastically supportive of diving as a feature of the waterfront. Starting with a visit by Mike Racine of the Washington SCUBA Alliance last year, the mayor and city council have taken a serious interest in Langley's potential for economic development based upon becoming a dive destination. Additionally, I've spoken to many non-diving residents of Langley and S. Whidbey, and feel we have strong community support, as well.

2. The report in S. Whidbey Record on Wednesday of this week was a bit misleading. I can state with confidence that the Port supports diving as a part of the future of Langley's waterfront. I'm engaged with the Port in discussions about how to make it work, and I'm on their agenda for next Wednesday's Port meeting to discuss next steps, etc.

3. At the Northwest SCUBA Show in Tacoma, I was invited by Mike Racine to discuss this project during his WSA session on shore-based diving; this project is on the WSA radar, and I look forward to whatever help and guidance we can get from them;

4. As was mentioned in an earlier reply in this thread, I had 3 booths at the dive show with sign up lists for those interested in being involved with this initiative. If you're interested in being included on the list, please send me your email address.

5. IMMEDIATE NEED: If the Port agrees to include an artificial reef design in their JARPA (Joint Aquatic Resources Permit Application) in July, I'm going to need a 30% engineered solution. I'm looking for a member of the dive community who can help with this engineering. We will be basing it on the Saltwater State Park artificial reef, since some precedent has been set in the approvals for that project. In addition, we are looking at creating some underwater sculpture features (one idea is a scale model Orca or Grey Whale) to be a part of the design. So, if you think you can help me with the engineering drawings that have to be done by mid-June, please contact me.

6. I will be publishing a blog soon about this project, its progress, our needs from the dive community in terms of support, hands on involvement, etc.; I'll post notification of the blogs URL when we start actually publishing something to it.

Thanks for your interest in helping to save diving in Langley.

Best regards,
Russell Sparkman

[spatman]

hello, russell, and welcome to NWDC!

thanks for posting, and please continue to keep us updated.

[Jim T.]

I sent letters and made phone calls last year when several area dive shops (Anacortes, Whidbey Dive Center, etc .) made a trek down to an evening meeting. I sent the local shop a copy of my letter to the Port and City, etc. The Port and City were very receptive at that point and we believed saw economic benefit in establishing a new and improved dive site at Langley. There has already been a plan (mostly) in place outlining what the site would entail. There were some issues with entry and exit points but it was a receptive and cooperative meeting/tentative plan.
I dove Langley just last week. There are "rumors" along the waterfront (at the marina/park) that the current economic crash has once again put everything on hold. From reading this thread it seems that's not accurate.

It's been an interesting "man on the street (beach) experience over the last couple of years. I've run into Federal inspectors with clip boards who had no idea what the Port or City had in mind, just what their task at hand was...I've met Port people who didn't know what the Feds were doing, what the state guys "over there" are doing or what the City wanted to do with the whole shebang. Give it to the Port?
Etc.

By the way, the viz at Langley is sometimes excellent. It's as "whimsical" as Mukilteo for example, usually much better than Rosario and when the life is at it's fullest "bloom" and the viz is good, right up there with Keystone Jetty, on the outer tire reef.
It's a crapshoot like most sites. The plankton bloom that's made Muk uh...mucky and Edmonds the same was also present at Langley last week. I've had 15-20' viz there many times and once, 25'-30' but that's extremely rare.
A lot of times people dive there once or twice and write it off but it varies like everywhere else.

Something I'm not personally happy about is the finger pier that's been moored/anchored to the outer marina wall. It's very narrow and all, but it IS an overhead environment and in anything but good to great viz, I don't much like going under there.
It's a shame it's over the best part of the tire reef, it seems like there'd be ample depth on the side wall for tying up a boat but... (come to think of it, I've NEVER seen a boat tied up to that finger dock...)

There has NEVER been an issue to my knowledge of boats vs. divers being any problem as long as
divers stay outside of the marina proper (docks) which is extremely easy to do. On the outside wall (east) once must listen for overhead boats but it's so easy to stay under that finger dock (an end tie) or stay right on/close to the wall where no reasonable
(or most unreasonable) boaters would pass over you.

I'll continue to keep tabs on this site's future via the local shops and I'm sure there will be more meetings to attend in the
future. Mike Racine was involved with the meeting last year and I'd think he's "the man" to approach for accurate up to date info.

This is a great training site for OW, new gear, trim weight trials, etc. Almost no current, almost complete weather protection,
depths no deeper than 50' and usually only 40 fsw during "normal" tides. The number of dive shops who regularly train and dive there is well known to the Port and City and so far, they have seemed very receptive to including us in "the plan". How the plan
plays out is still to be determined.

Thanks very much Russell for posting here. It'll be a great help to keep rumors at bay and to keep up with what's "really going to happen" to a much loved and used dive site.
The City of Mukilteo's receptiveness to diver presentations and communications WOULD be a good thing for Langley to
check out. If Langley was/is aware of Mukilteo's possible installation of a dive park perhaps it would spur a little competitive or cooperative economic spirit or a way to tie in tourism between both communities benefitting both?

Great points made about British Columbia's wrecks and dive destination creation. It always amazes me that WA hasn't picked up on how beneficial it's been for our neighbors to the N.

Thanks Jake for "hipping" me to this thread with the link. I'll be talking with our local shops to see what's being organized THIS year.

[Tubesnout23]

Hello folks!

I have just received this e-mail from a local diver. Maybe some of you already know about it:

"Please send the below e-mail to as many of the local divers as possible. I realize this is a very limited notice, but we need the help of the diving community to show support through numbers.

The Port of South Whidbey will be having a meeting at 7:30 pm on 13 May at the Freeland library to discuss the Master Plan Update for the Langley Marina.

The Port has submitted a Master Plan Update to the City of Langley to summarize the Port’s proposal for improvement and expansion of the Langley harbor and environment in the South Whidbey Marina, following transfer of the facility to the Port on January 1, 2009. The proposed Master Plan Update is available at all Libraries within the District, and copies are also available to the public at the Port office or at Langley City Hall. (The proposed Update is not available on-line at this time.) More information is available at: http://portofsouthwhidbey.com.

During this meeting Russell Sparkman will be making a presentation aimed at convincing the Port to agree to include a dive design in their upcoming JARPA.

It is requested that as many divers as possible attend this meeting and show their support for local diving sites."

I hope to see you there!

cheers

[Tubesnout23]

Thanks Russell for the great presentation that you did at the Port of South Whidbey meeting last Wednesday.

I came out from that meeting with mixed feeling. On one hand it seems to me that the Port folks are interested in incorporating a dive site in the new proposed expanded marina; on the other I am rather puzzled by the fact that apparently in the design of the new marina there is no room for divers. I haven't seen the plan and it is not available on line. Other divers did see it and told me about it. (I will see if I can find a copy at Oak Harbor library).

From the tone of the commissioners(?) I got the feeling that that design cannot be modified to incorporate a dive site (am I wrong? I hope so!). In other words they did not seem to be willing to accommodate fewer boats in order to give room for divers. So this ambiguity makes me think that they did not really care about divers when they began to mastermind this expansion of the marina in the first place. The major goal of this project is to attract rich boaters who are , supposedly, going to spend hundreds of $ in Langley shops, inns and restaurants. These guys are hoping that the new marina is going to turn into a goose that lays golden eggs!(what if this big $$$ dream doesn't materialize after spending big $$ for the construction of the new marina? Do they have a backup plan? I wonder...)

Now you come along and propose to incorporate an artificial reef and the creation of a 'dive site' on behalf of Whidbey Island and WA divers. Thank you very much for doing all that work! The fact that they were receptive to your idea and allowed you to give a presentation it is a positive sign. But the battle is far from over. It was clear that the application for an artificial reef cannot be submitted with their first application (sorry I don't know exactly what that is etc.) that they want to push forward in June/July (?). One good thing about that it's that it gives us more time to put a proposal together.

The major hurdle to me right now is the issues of space, access to the reef and safety. If it is true that the design of the new marina in the way that it is now doesn't allow enough room for divers and if the Port of South Whidbey doesn't want to negotiate and consider to make changes to the design to create a dive site that would make everybody happy then I don't think we have much hope to build a unique and exciting dive site like you envision.

As many divers as possible should keep 'beating the iron until it's hot'. Look at the design and keep sending letters to the Port of SW and the papers. Write their experiences in diving at Langley Marina and send them to Rick Stratton, the publisher and editor of Northwest Dive News (rick@nwdivenews.com). He may be willing to publish several articles, if not an entire issue, about diving in Langley. These are few ideas that I have been thinking about since the meeting.

Cheers

[russellfsm]

Thanks, TubeSnout, for your comments.

Believe me, I share the same sense of frustration that you express. As you saw in my presentation, I pointed out to the Port where their own comprehensive plan states clearly their support of diving, yet in the whole marina design process it has been more of an afterthought, at least until now. There is support from the staff, and as indicated at the meeting, the commissioners have asked staff to meet with the dive community to determine needs, what's feasible, etc., in a new site.

For those not there, my presentation outline was as follows:
1. Introduced that Langley can become the premier dive destination in Puget Sound

2. I based claim #1 on the fact that no other location in Puget Sound can offer the combination of lodging, restaurants, shopping, and shore-based diving that Langley can;

3. I based claim #2 on the premise that Langley needs to build a "world class' artificial reef, to make Langley into a regional/national dive destination (fyi, Mike Racine of WSA has been an advisor and a soundpost, regarding these ideas). I indicated that underwater sculptures in and amongst a Saltwater State Park-like artificial reef could help achieve that level, and showed examples from Cozumel, the Keys, etc. of popular sites with underwater sculpture. It's important, in this context, to understand that Langley's comprehensive plan identifies "arts, culture and education" as economic drivers in this community, and that this concept integrates very well with our economic development plans. I showed some Photoshop mock-ups of the dive site with scale model Orca or gray whale skeleton as conceptual sculptures that could be a part of this reef;

4. I shared 4 case studies, from British Columbia, to San Diego, to Florida, to Edmonds, of the economic benefits of artificial reefs. As I stated in the presentation, "it's all good" when it comes to what I've seen reported about the benefits of artificial reefs. I really tried to drive home that on a cost/benefit basis, artificial reefs are hugely successful economic drivers.

My objective for the meeting was to try to get the port to include the site design in their July JARPA -- this was something that I was encouraged to do. I was hopeful, yet skeptical, at the same time. My skepticism was based on the very short amount of time available to create the needed documentation. The Port commissioners don't want to see anything interfere with this upcoming JARPA, so didn't agree to include the dive site in the upcoming JARPA, so we didn't succeed in that regard.

They did agree that their staff should be meeting with members of the dive community to identify location and features of the site. I guess this is to be regarded as an accomplishment. If you're interested in participating with me, in meetings with members of the port staff, to work on this, please let me know.

I do have to acknowledge that I, like Tubesnout, am ambivalent about the options for locating the site. There are complications and challenges, due to the Port's marina design and the location of the Nichols Dock. I think one thing that we may need to face up to is that the qualities that make Langley a good year around training site, may not be a part of its future. This is do to the fact that a new artificial reef will likely be further from shore, and deeper, than the current tire reef site.

Still -- and please correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't been diving at Edmonds yet -- it may be less of a swim to get to the bottom features than at Edmonds ...

And the Port has indicated an interest/willingness to provide step-in access off the breakwaters to a dive site that is further from shore than what currently exists. Gear could be carried out to the breakwaters in wheeled carts, etc.

I have begun a blog, at http://langleydiving.wordpress.com, to share updates, and I'll continue to update people here, on this forum.

Thanks,
Russell

[russellfsm]

Re: Langley Dive Site Developments

Postby russellfsm on Fri May 29, 2009 2:43 pm
UPDATE - June 1 City Council Meeting - Langley

I am on the Agenda to present the "Langley as a Dive Destination" presentation that I gave to the Port the week before last.

Here's the online agenda: http://tinyurl.com/lbzqv9

The meeting officially begins at 6:30, but due to the fact that there is a Public Hearing on a Moratorium, as well as an item on Stormwater rate increases, it's unlikely that my presentation will be any early than 7:30.

If you're planning on attending, you might want to try to get there by 7:00, just to be on the safe side.

Thanks
Russell

[Tubesnout23]

Re: Langley Dive Site Developments

Postby russellfsm on Fri May 29, 2009 2:43 pm
UPDATE - June 1 City Council Meeting - Langley

I am on the Agenda to present the "Langley as a Dive Destination" presentation that I gave to the Port the week before last.

Here's the online agenda: http://tinyurl.com/lbzqv9

The meeting officially begins at 6:30, but due to the fact that there is a Public Hearing on a Moratorium, as well as an item on Stormwater rate increases, it's unlikely that my presentation will be any early than 7:30.

If you're planning on attending, you might want to try to get there by 7:00, just to be on the safe side.

Thanks
Russell

I think the City Council Meeting went rather well. It seems to me that the City supports the idea of creating an artificial reef/underwater sculpture park.

One thing that I did not understand is now that the city has given the marina to the Port of South Whidbey does it have any power to influence/change the decisions made by the port at all?

As you mentioned after the meeting now it is important to involve more local divers. It is going to be a hard and slow process. I know only few but I bet there must be a lot more out there. How would be possible to reach them?

Are you planning to organize a meeting where, hopefully, more local divers will have the chance to get involved?

Thanks again for your hard work!

cheers

[Gooch]

I know there is probably threads about this and folks have likely discussed it but I couldn't find much by searching the forum so I will ask.....I'm interested on info about sinking ships in WA for artificial reefs like the Canadians do. I would like to find out more about where I can find out what is the current state of that or if there are specific groups working on that idea. I was reading a few posts on this site that really make the case for doing it here to compete with the Canadians for "destination dive" dollars. If someone has links or knows of posts that already have that kind of info, I would appreciate reading them. Please excuse my noobie ignorance if this has been a well hashed over topic (I'm sure it is) but just point me toward the bathroom reading materials and I will be quiet.

[Tubesnout23]

I know there is probably threads about this and folks have likely discussed it but I couldn't find much by searching the forum so I will ask.....I'm interested on info about sinking ships in WA for artificial reefs like the Canadians do. I would like to find out more about where I can find out what is the current state of that or if there are specific groups working on that idea. I was reading a few posts on this site that really make the case for doing it here to compete with the Canadians for "destination dive" dollars. If someone has links or knows of posts that already have that kind of info, I would appreciate reading them. Please excuse my noobie ignorance if this has been a well hashed over topic (I'm sure it is) but just point me toward the bathroom reading materials and I will be quiet.

You could start by contacting WA Scuba Alliance

www.wascubaalliance.org/

and do you read Northwest Dive News magazine? Several articles about artificial reefs have been published there.

http://nwdivenews.com/dev/

cheers

[Gooch]

Did those: There isn't much in the scuba alliance page but Janna did email some info on the latest-greatest with that effort so hats of to her for that. Much of the info I'm finding is pretty dated and I was mainly trying to see what was going on now. I'm still digging around. It does sound like a tremendously slow process with a lot of minds set against it so maybe our children will be able to dive wrecks-to-reefs in the sound one day. I think the fiscal side of the equation makes a lot of sense (just look at Nanaimo and Florida) so I'm not sure what the argument would be against it. I just want to understand that a bit more.

[Tubesnout23]

Did those: There isn't much in the scuba alliance page but Janna did email some info on the latest-greatest with that effort so hats of to her for that. Much of the info I'm finding is pretty dated and I was mainly trying to see what was going on now. I'm still digging around. It does sound like a tremendously slow process with a lot of minds set against it so maybe our children will be able to dive wrecks-to-reefs in the sound one day. I think the fiscal side of the equation makes a lot of sense (just look at Nanaimo and Florida) so I'm not sure what the argument would be against it. I just want to understand that a bit more.

Have you contacted Russell at all?

He is in the middle of doing exactly what you are trying to do.

Regarding Langley as far as I know there is going to be a meeting with the folks from the Port to discuss the reef at some point in the future.
As you mentioned it seems to me too that to create an artificial reef can be a really slow and frustrating process with a lot of 'red tape' and doors to knock etc. so a lot of patience is required, I guess. I think if the Dep. of Fishing and Wildlife, Dep. of Ecology (?) and local politicians are 'bombarded' with artificial reef proposals and the issue is kept 'alive' in the media the Sate may decided the speed up this process somehow.

I am planning to find out if there is anybody with some knowledge in artificial reefs at the Seattle Aquarium (I volunteer there one day a week).

Maybe contacting divers in Florida via Scubaboard may help you to learn how those folks did it there.

Cheers