Water Visibility During Open Water Classes

[60south]

There is another thread that is discussing water visibility as it relates to an incident during a dive class. Rather than get involved in that debate, perhaps it would be more constructive to ask other board members on their experiences and opinions.

Here's my .02: It's all relative. We're actually spoiled here in PS, even when the vis is "bad". There are many places where it's a lot worse. When I was dive-mastering, 3ft was considered excellent visibility. During my A.O.W. class, we often had to communicate mask-to-mask. Blackwater diving isn't much fun, but you can hold classes in it.

IMO, what seems more important are considerations like the instructor-to-student ratio, and planning for the visibility at hand.

[lundysd]

I was certified in 3' viz -- I think it drastically helped my in water comfort in my early diving, because not much else rattled me after that

That being said... as a DM in the very same conditions several years later, I can attest that keeping track of students and conducting classes in that environment takes far more effort and concentration

[BDub]

IMO, what seems more important are considerations like the instructor-to-student ratio, and planning for the visibility at hand.

I think this is key. The fact is, a majority of people want to learn to dive in spring and summer. Many times the trade off to the warmer weather is reduced visibility. If they're planning to dive up here, then they're learning to dive in the environment they'll be diving in. People who are learning to dive here so they can dive on their upcoming vacation can sometimes be a different story.

I think class size is key, however. Even when we were teaching open water classes frequently, we'd very rarely take more than one student team per instructor, good vis or bad vis. This is a necessity when vis is bad, imo. The student to instructor ratios that are allowed may work fine in tropical locations with good vis, but it compromises the safety of the students and staff when vis is bad.

Students also need to be prepared on what to expect as fas as visibility (or lack of it), so they're not expecting it to look like the gin clear blue water they see on television.

[girldiver]

As a new student, I wouldn't have known the danger...but I would have been a bit unnerved...and not enjoyed the experience. (I didn't like diving when I HAD visibility...certainly wouldn't have continued on if I couldn't have seen my instructor underwater)

As an instructor, this year I have cancelled two classes and made dives one-on-one with students to ensure safety while in the water. For me, with the responsibility entrusted to me (um...their lives...) I'm very aware of the panic that can happen in normal conditions...let alone when you take away visibility. And you don't always know when a student is going to have issues in the Open Water. Some students appear excellent in the pool setting and a different student arrives in the Open Water. Or at 30' deep,they all of a sudden have the realization that the water is bigger and heavier than they are...and it catches everyone by suprise...including the student.

Saturday an instructor laughed when I asked what the visibility was...and said..."5 feet, but if they can't handle that...maybe they shouldn't dive in the Northwest." (Pretty sure my poker face wasn't working on that one...)

We have an amazing dive season in the Northwest. We can dive throughout the winter...and our summer diving (post algae bloom) is absolutely gorgeous. Students SHOULD realize the dangers of the water by the time they are ready for their Open Water dives...and should have no issues with rescheduling for a time the water is more amicable to safety and seeing stuff.

We have an algae bloom that usually lasts 6-8 weeks...so being more cautious (waaaayyyy small groups or later dives) should be protocol. Unfortunately, I see groups of 4-6 students entering the water...knowing the instructor cannot possibly see more than two of those students at a time. Yes, they may have divemasters with them...but ultimately, as instructors, WE are charged with the safety and security of those students. When the liability comes down..."would a professional in a similar situation have made that choice".

The water doesn't always conform to class schedules or monthly income goals as set by the dive shop. We need to respect the water and allow the water to give us the wonder and amazement on IT'S time... In the Open Water course book (PADI) it states you should dive within your comfort level to avoid problems. I wonder how many non-certified divers are really comfortable when they can't see their instructor on dive #2?

For those who talk about how they trained in this and that's why they are great divers...that's great. My question would be...how many of your classmates never dove again? And if they had trained during better visibility situations...and grew in their confidence levels at THEIR pace..would there be more active divers in the area?

The Pacific Northwest has some of the most spectacular diving...but it shouldn't be only available to those who are "tough enough" to dive it during it's worst conditions.

[fmerkel]

I've been actively diving for 15 years. I can dive in no viz. I still don't like it. I go down to SEE stuff, not run into it by accident. I have no idea how an instructor can keep track of a whole class like that-maybe 1 on 1. I'm not happy diving with an experienced 3-some in low viz. Inevitably someone seems to get lost and even though there is most likely very little danger they are in actual trouble you have to do the whole ascent/safety drill to be sure.

I know it's a serious logistical hassle. People sign up, they want their course run on schedule and sometimes there is a real deadline (trip). In addition people seem to be getting more and more impatient and courses are getting so truncated I don't think anyone out of OW1 is remotely competent to dive in the NW on their own. I think they are ----barely----maybe--- after Advanced ( which is pure marketing garbage and NEVER should have gotten that name - don't get me started).

Fritz

[airsix]

My OW class was in 3-5ft viz, but the instructor/student ratio was kept low. One instructor/DM for 2-3 students max. This was in the '80s in freshwater. The ratio wasn't because of lack of students. There were at least a dozen students in the class.

[ERP]

When I got certified, I couldn't do my remove mask skill because the instructor couldn't see me do it.
The vis was pretty good until 15 students went down a line kicked up the silt and knelt on the bottom, I spent 15 minutes at the end of the line kneeling and freezing until the vis cleared enough for the instructor to see the skills.
The DM to student ratio was of the order of 1 DM to 2 students, so there wasn't any real danger to anyone, but it was far from ideal, I've often wondered how many of the other students certified that day still dive. 2 of the students never completed their skills and I know it put my GF off diving cold water permanently.

In this case it was an instructor not thinking through what putting 15 students in water with a silty bottom would really mean.

Bad vis is something of a fact of life here, but putting uncomfortable students in a position where they are performing unfamiliar skills in low vis conditions, is a pretty good way to put them off diving locally permanently.

[Paulicarp]

Obvously I'm not instructor myself, just an OW recreational diver, but in my opinion class size is by far the biggest issue here.
My OW class was almost exactly a year ago. For most of the dives we had decent if not good viz. Of the 8 dives, I remember two times in particular where we had a siltout that I wasn’t expecting. In one case I had two instructors and an experienced teammate right there that were watching just me. The other time I was with an instructor and an experienced teammate that I had confidence in. In both cases, I was a little concerned- who wouldn’t be as a new diver, but I didn’t feel at all “panicked.” I believe the overwhelming main reason I didn’t tend to panic was the instructor/student ratio. I knew they were right there watching just me.
We all have our limitations and proclivities for certain kinds of fear and stress. As I think back on my OW class, I realize that my instructors had a better sense of my limitations than even I did. Since I was their primary focus, they had the option of giving me over to the silt cloud to give me the experience, or to get me out of it if I wasn’t able to work with it. Either way, they were in direct control of the situation and using it for the best outcome in my training. As good as they were, they couldn’t have done that for a class of 6 (or more) students.

[Grateful Diver]

One of my most vivid memories of my OW checkout dives was seeing a "disembodied" hand in front of my mask, beckoning me to come out from the silt cloud I had just stirred up. No problem. Bad vis has never bothered me, in part because it wasn't particularly good when I did my checkout dives, and was a lot worse once I got down there.

I think what people are missing here is that the vis isn't the problem. Instructor control and student stress are really the things you have to watch out for. Some instructors are better than others at being in control of their class. When vis is poor, low student-to-instructor ratios are a necessity. Instructors who know how to maintain control and, if necessary, contact with their students are a necessity. And if a student even BEGINS to look like their stress level is reaching a boiling point, for God's sakes, call the dive before it turns into something major. OW students are in an environment they're not at all "wired" for already ... take away their ability to see what's going on and, with a percentage of them, you're just asking for trouble.

It's all in the instructor's hands ... the students don't know what to expect, and haven't a clue where their limits are. Many instructors feel pressured ... either by the shop or by their own busy schedule ... not to thumb the dives. Others are, perhaps, more confident in their ability to handle the situation than they should be. This latter is exacerbated by dive shops who push people quickly into the "pro" ranks by telling them they're "a natural" and signing them up for class-after-class with little real-world diving experience.

Key thing is that no matter what the visibility looks like, the instructor MUST maintain control of the OW student ... which is to say, either the instructor or a designated DM/AI must be within arms reach of the student at all times. You need to watch for the warning signs of stress, and know when to toss a thumb surfaceward and say it's not happening today. There is no hard-and-fast number when it comes to saying vis is either too good or too poor. Sometimes I've called it only after we've tried an exercise or two and watched how the student(s) handle the situation.

Everybody's different ... every situation needs to be considered individually. The key is exercise good judgment, and don't let "business" considerations take priority over student safety. If you're having trouble seeing them ... or if the student's having trouble dealing with the conditions ... call the damn dive.

There's always another day ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Zen Diver]

Bob and Cindy: well said.

Valerie

[ArcticDiver]

As an individual who came to scuba with significant experience in hazardous situations I had learned to size up the person in charge pretty quickly. If the person in charge displayed certain characteristics I would not accept that person's direction when it came to safety. No ifs, ands, or buts. If I didn't know what I was doing that meant I didn't do that, whatever it was. I lucked out that my initial instructor was mature in body and attitude. He demanded a lot but I understood I would be a better diver for it. He didn't skip anything in our safety checks which was very comforting and instructive. He didn't do that "break you down to build you up" thing that I'd experienced in the military. Nor, did he smooth over any of the real hazards.

In short, because the instructor was obviously competent, safety minded and keyed to my best learning style lack of visibility became just one of the things I had to cope with in my new endeavor. It wasn't fun. I didn't like it at all. But, I coped and in that coping became right out of the gate a more skilled and independent diver than most.(some would say too independent) Plus, although I read that others have had fear of tryiing something new or of being able to overcome something, thanks in large part to that beginning, I have never had that experience.

Today I thank my good fortune in getting an OW instructor with a good attitude. I haven't been as fortunate with my advanced and specific skills instructors. But, with that good foundation I've been able to survive and mostly have fun. What else could I ask for?

Just a perspective from one who vividly remembers his initial dives one November in blowing snow.

[RedSleeves]

Bob and Cindy: well said.

Valerie

I second that!

Vince

[nwbobber]

I did two open water classes. One when I was 14, then later after a 30 year surface interval another, with my wife. They were like night and day. The first in 1971 we were at a motel that used to be in Hoodsport. It is the building just south of where Hoodsport n dive is now. There were eight of us if I remember right. one instructor and a DM, AI or whatever he was. This was in December, and there was slush floating on the surface, all but one of us, who was a surfer and had a drysuit, were in wetsuits. They had us wait at the motel geared up and one buddy team at a time swam out to a line, the DM took us down the line where the instructor waited, did our skills, then went back to the motel and got in the swimming pool. The silt was not a problem, of course it was December. No one got overly cold. It worked great.
The second experience was in February. Water temp in the low 40's. should have been good viz, but the shop I was with must have had 20 students, and Oregon State Univ. also had their open water class there also. An instructor would take six students out to do skills, in less than 2 ft viz. At one point the instructor had us move, he could not see if the student right in front of him was performing the skill or not. My wife started to go and her fin came off. She then put her foot up so the instructor could see what had happened. I saw it , and went down into the muck to feel around for it, but he missed it, and started off with the whole class in tow. I came up out of the muck alone. I was comfortable, having been there before, but my wife has told me that she would not have continued diving based on that experience if it were not for my encouragement, and assurance that it was not representative. I think an open water checkout should be fun. That IS the whole point of this, isn't it?
The impression I was left with, was that the second shop was not as interested in safety, and our enjoyment as I would prefer, and they will probably never get another shot at my business.

[Joshua Smith]

I'll just add my two cents here: In my opinion, if you want to dive around here, you should be trained to deal with our frequently crappy visibility. Someone who learns to dive in 100' of viz in the tropics may be woefully unprepared for local conditions.

That said, instructors should obviously take every precaution with new students in the event of reduced visibility- just as they should with any other variables such as currents and weather.

[elmer fudd]

It seems to me that while bad visibility is an occasional fact of life around here, you don't want to expose new and untested divers to it on their first certification dives if at all possible. Chances are they're already quite anxious and have developed few skills for coping with bad situations underwater. Taking new students out in very bad visibility just seems like a bad decision to me, especially when there are places around the sound that have tolerable visibility.

I also kind of wonder about the definition of vis. What exactly does 3' of vis mean? I dove at Dockton a few weeks ago and we had maybe 4' of absolute visibility, meaning that from 4' away my dive buddy was only a dark shadow and at 5' he could not be seen at all. Smaller objects and details could only be made out at 2' or less. I can't imagine anyone trying to teach an OW class in those conditions. My dive buddy and I had to stay so close that we were frequently bumping into each other and since we were swimming within hands reach of the bottom, (only way you could see anything), we created more than a couple of silt out conditions. We did all right, but I'm guessing that a lot of new divers would be seriously freaked out by the whole experience and that instructors would have a very difficult time keeping track of students or spotting potential problems.

[RedSleeves]

Something that has been mentioned, but not specifically pointed out and discussed here is that we all dive and have learned to dive because it is enjoyable. I have never met any diver that learned to dive because they dislike the water or the underwater world. Divers (new divers and those not so new) all have this in common, we like it, it's fun, it's enjoyable or however you want to describe it.

With that said, I completely agree that divers that want to dive in our home water need to be fully aware of and at least familiar with diving in the conditions that the puget sound presents. However, I believe that first impressions are lasting impressions. As dive professionals should we not do our utmost to provide students with first dives that lend themselves to learning the skills of being a diver in the pool and in the open water? This includes conducting initial open water classes when weather and water conditions lend themselves to providing a safe and enjoyable learning environment. I firmly believe to do anything else is an injustice to our students, our industry and ourselves.

Just my thoughts.

Vince

[Berritt]

The vis was really bad during our check out dives. But it was a really small class and it felt like there were more than enough "supervisors" keeping an eye on us. I was unnerved and a little scared a couple times, but never felt unsafe. The only other time I'd been scuba diving was in the bahamas with what felt like a million feet visibility. This is a whole new world.
I wouldn't choose to get back in that vis for FUN (about 5 feet when we WEREN'T silting up the place, I was told) but I do feel like since I did that, I will feel all the more confident with better visibility.

Being very very new, obviously, my opinion probably doesn't mean a lot. But as a student, I was really confident that the instructors WE HAD were keeping us safe.

[scottsax]

I was unnerved and a little scared a couple times, but never felt unsafe.

That's one of my FAVORITE feelings in the world: a little scared, but in control.

I wouldn't choose to get back in that vis for FUN (about 5 feet when we WEREN'T silting up the place, I was told) but I do feel like since I did that, I will feel all the more confident with better visibility.

Being very very new, obviously, my opinion probably doesn't mean a lot. But as a student, I was really confident that the instructors WE HAD were keeping us safe.

Actually, that's a very astute comment. You WILL feel more confident in better viz, because you dove successfully in crap viz. And if you felt like your instructors were keeping you safe, they probably were. Your first impression, as they say, is usually right!

Welcome to PNW diving!

[Grateful Diver]

Something that has been mentioned, but not specifically pointed out and discussed here is that we all dive and have learned to dive because it is enjoyable. I have never met any diver that learned to dive because they dislike the water or the underwater world. Divers (new divers and those not so new) all have this in common, we like it, it's fun, it's enjoyable or however you want to describe it.

Believe it or not, that is not always the case.

I have had three students who did not get into it because they liked it. Two were talked into trying scuba by a significant other. One decided that scuba diving would somehow help him overcome his fear of water.

None of them ever completed OW class ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[dwashbur]

We did our OW dives at Blue Lake, on the border between Nevada and Utah, because it was winter time and the lake is thermal. Viz was maybe 10 feet because the lake bottom is all silt, and we were told that we were seeing it on a good day. Our first couple of descents I got a little vertigo, but it passed as I focused on the descent rope and other apparatus that has been put in the lake especially for divers. Our instructors stayed close to everybody and we were gathered around a large platform to do our skills, so we always felt safe. Two instructors were constantly going around monitoring everybody's air while another worked skills with us individually. It was a really good setup, so the viz wasn't that big a concern.

[ArcticDiver]

Why do people become scuba divers? For a variety of reasons I suppose. In my case I spent a lot of time in the wild and this was just an extension of that. Had I not had a competent, safety concious, student keyed instructor I would not have ever been certified. I didn't know any different so as far as I was concerned limited visibility was most common.

[60south]

That's one of my FAVORITE feelings in the world: a little scared, but in control.

Somewhere in that line is a good joke about sex... and only seeing a couple inches... but I'm not going to touch it.

[oregondiver]

That's one of my FAVORITE feelings in the world: a little scared, but in control.

Somewhere in that line is a good joke about sex... and only seeing a couple inches... but I'm not going to touch it.

[CaptnJack]

That's one of my FAVORITE feelings in the world: a little scared, but in control.

Somewhere in that line is a good joke about sex... and only seeing a couple inches... but I'm not going to touch it.

Good call, I wouldn't touch 60south either

[60south]

Good call, I wouldn't touch 60south either

Eeeeew. Thank goodness. Keep yer hands to yerself.