Great Video of an almost dreadful mistake

[pensacoladiver]

Well a divemaster should be resonsible for sumthn... Looks like I'm never going on a trpoic dive without skilled divers ... I will take NWDC members only .

You will never go on a tropic dive because you won't get out of bed in time to catch the airplane.

[Dashrynn]

Well a divemaster should be resonsible for sumthn... Looks like I'm never going on a trpoic dive without skilled divers ... I will take NWDC members only .

You will never go on a tropic dive because you won't get out of bed in time to catch the airplane.

[Mattleycrue76]

It should NOT be the divemaster's or anyone elses responsibility to control others people's dive profiles or gas plan. I say should because of course in reality that ends up happening alot. If you need someone to tell you not to go to 150 fsw on an AL80 maybe it's time for a refresher course - or maybe a new hobby.

While the two ignorant divers in the video should in fact find a new hobby... It really is the dive master's responsibility to control other people's dive plan. In fact most dive ops are quite specific about your dive profile… which is why it’s annoying if you ever want to stay down longer than they specify. How often have you been on one of these terrible warm water dive boats exactly?

Having spent a bunch of time with tropical "dive masters" of late, I'll come to their defense a little... why? Because when I'm typing it looks like I’m hard at work… and I’m bored…. And procrastinating.

First… I wouldn’t go as far as calling the folks who work on these cattle boats anything with the word “master” in it. Let’s just call them tour guides and I know a couple of really good ones here on the Big Island. The sad fact is that the majority of them are just kids without sense god gave a goose. It’s sad when you know where you are better than your tour guide. Second... a really a good reef tour guide should be able to do two things a) keep the group together b) monitor everyone’s consumption to re-plan the dive accordingly.

That said… do what I do when I’m on one of these boats without another competent diver… bring (as Bob calls his) your pal Al with you.

The real question is... if that were you... would you have gone down that deep to rescue those two?

-Eric

Hence my use of the word "should". I am fully aware that in real everyday diving on tropical boats it is common for divemasters to be taking care of everyones gear, profiles, air consumption, etc. etc.

My point is that I don't think it's fair to expect that from what you referred to as essentially tour guides. Every time I'm around an open water class I tip my hat to the Instructors and DM's who teach. No doubt this is a much more difficult task than most people realize and I'll bet that goes for leading boat tours as well. Having said that I wonder how many people could be discouraged from dives beyong their experience level if they were simply required to put their own gear together and rely on themselves instead of of the perceived safety net of the DM.

Years ago as a teenager I tried to rent a small catamaran. My friend and I had never sailed one - only small dhingys - but we figured we'd teach ourselves once we got out on the Ocean (Mediterrainean what could possibly go wrong right?). As we were fumbling about with the rigging and making general fools of ourself the operator looked at us and said "Boys you can sign up for a class but you sure as hell aren't taking this boat out today"
Excellent decision on his part I might add. Am I so wrong to advocate applying this logic to diving?

[Paulicarp]

I remember seeing this vid when I was first getting serious about learning to dive in January this year. At the time, I thought these kids were obviously really stupid.

Now with some experience and training, I have another thought as I look at it. Now I think about how easy it could be for a diver to unwittingly put themselves in that situation. Diving is intolerant of carelessness and inattention.

[ljjames]

I'm with you there, pez... made the hairs on my arm stand up... ughma.

"That video gave me chills."

[pensacoladiver]

The real question is... if that were you... would you have gone down that deep to rescue those two?

I think that is based on individual comfort level. The camera man was already that deep. If not narced himself, I feel he had at least a "moral" obligation if no other to see what was going on. Seems he was fairly experienced in the water.

141 feet in warm, clear water for an experienced diver is not a huge deal (in my opinion). Of course this is also based on how much air he had too.

One thing I can certainly understand is how those 2 ended up so deep. In the clear/warm, it was very easy for me to end up much deeper than I had any business being.

The advantage up here is that just about anything below 80FSW gives one pause to say "boy, it is getting awfully dark, maybe I should head back up a bit".

[sungurl]

Crazy crazy..and oh so lucky.....A good reminder to us all, eh??? I have to admit, being a new diver and not being aware of how much air I use, I'm CONSTANTLY checking my guages (even have it on video to prove, lol)....obviously these two were not with it.....but still....The divemaster is lucky that those two didn't have something horrific happen, because then it WOULD have come down on him.....some people.....

[spatman]

It should NOT be the divemaster's or anyone elses responsibility to control others people's dive profiles or gas plan. I say should because of course in reality that ends up happening alot.

it should be in the best interests of the divemaster/tour guide and dive operator to keep track of the divers under their purview, since in today's litigious society, it's their ass that will get sued should anything happen to those divers.

[lizard0924]

It should NOT be the divemaster's or anyone elses responsibility to control others people's dive profiles or gas plan. I say should because of course in reality that ends up happening alot.

it should be in the best interests of the divemaster/tour guide and dive operator to keep track of the divers under their purview, since in today's litigious society, it's their ass that will get sued should anything happen to those divers.

Apparently, the DMs in Cozumel didn't get that memo.

[Gooch]

Did anyone else kinda get the feeling that this was a "staged" video? Seemed like the guy had shots of his computer depth a lot. I suppose he could have been doing that for other reasons to begin with.

[spatman]

It should NOT be the divemaster's or anyone elses responsibility to control others people's dive profiles or gas plan. I say should because of course in reality that ends up happening alot.

it should be in the best interests of the divemaster/tour guide and dive operator to keep track of the divers under their purview, since in today's litigious society, it's their ass that will get sued should anything happen to those divers.

Apparently, the DMs in Cozumel didn't get that memo.

nor the ones i've dived with in florida and puerto rico.

[Grateful Diver]

While the two ignorant divers in the video should in fact find a new hobby... It really is the dive master's responsibility to control other people's dive plan. In fact most dive ops are quite specific about your dive profile… which is why it’s annoying if you ever want to stay down longer than they specify. How often have you been on one of these terrible warm water dive boats exactly?

That varies with location. Some places I've been put a divemaster in the water primarily for those who want a guided dive. but there is no mandate for everyone to follow the dive guide. Most places in Bonaire, for example, leave it up to the individual diver to decide whether to dive the DM's plan or make your own. They only set a time limit on the dive (and not always that), and ask you to be back on the boat with 500 psi, then turn you loose.

I tend to prefer those types of operation, since otherwise they treat everyone like you just got your OW cert last week.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Grateful Diver]

Did anyone else kinda get the feeling that this was a "staged" video? Seemed like the guy had shots of his computer depth a lot. I suppose he could have been doing that for other reasons to begin with.

I first saw this video about a year ago on ScubaBoard, and there was a lot of speculation that it was staged. Someone even posited that it was put together as a prop for a class. If so, it's a powerful message, and one I would be glad to see more instructors use as part of their class.

It would definitely get students thinking ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Nwbrewer]

Did anyone else kinda get the feeling that this was a "staged" video? Seemed like the guy had shots of his computer depth a lot. I suppose he could have been doing that for other reasons to begin with.

Gooch, I shoot my computer on video sometimes. Mostly if I come across something new and want to remember what the depth was so I can get back there. Sometimes just to give a reference frame to the video. I usually edit it out before I post video, but I do film it.

[scottsax]

On our first dive to the Molokini Crater a couple weeks ago, the DM was going over the plan. She said, "Drop down to the bottom at 60fsw, give me the OK, then follow me. We're going to try to look in the 'shark condos' for baby reef sharks, so we'll drop down to 120 for a little bit, then back up. Feel free not to go that deep." I looked first at the rack of AL80s, then at my 7-OW-dives sweetheart, and said "F*** that!" The DM ended up not taking thhe group there, but still, the thought of taking unknown divers that deep without the proper gear gives me the willies.

Every dive, we'd gear up, buddy check, giant stride in, do a bubble check, and drop together. I have a feel for my air consumption, and could guess within 200 psi what my remaining air was, but I watched her air like a hawk. the best thing about diving here in general, and diving with NWDC folks specifically, is that it reinforces good habits and makes tropical diving so much easier.

Those 2 are lucky....

[girldiver]

After seeing this video...I'm really glad the warning at the beginning said everything turned out ok. This video is going into my advanced class curriculum for the Deep class piece. AND...I encourage all divers to take one of the GM workshops. I was a new instructor when I first took Bob's class...and boy...did it open up my eyes to things I had never considered.

The whole issue of two divers breathing off of one tank isn't something that is typically taught in the lower classes...and it really should be. I had never thought about the consequences of donating air...at depth...to someone who's a bit panicked because they just sucked the last of their air out. Didn't occur to me that person might be a 280 lb male who goes through alot of air...and is my tank, designed for MY lungs going to be enough to get us BOTH up.

[CaseyB449]

It should NOT be the divemaster's or anyone elses responsibility to control others people's dive profiles or gas plan. I say should because of course in reality that ends up happening alot.

it should be in the best interests of the divemaster/tour guide and dive operator to keep track of the divers under their purview, since in today's litigious society, it's their ass that will get sued should anything happen to those divers.

Apparently, the DMs in Cozumel didn't get that memo.

I was just thinking that same thing!

[Grateful Diver]

It should NOT be the divemaster's or anyone elses responsibility to control others people's dive profiles or gas plan. I say should because of course in reality that ends up happening alot.

it should be in the best interests of the divemaster/tour guide and dive operator to keep track of the divers under their purview, since in today's litigious society, it's their ass that will get sued should anything happen to those divers.

Apparently, the DMs in Cozumel didn't get that memo.

I was just thinking that same thing!

DM's in Cozumel don't live in "today's litigious society" ... they live in Mexico's society.

In most of the world outside the USA, if you choose to do something stupid and hurt yourself, you are considered responsible for your own decisions ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[ArcticDiver]

Interesting movie and comments. What is especially interesting are the varied comments from cold water, avid, tech attitude divers and comparing those to that of the folks who rarely dive anything but the tropics. What those folks were doing, staged or not, in my experience is pretty common. Of course most of the time they are back on the boat with more than zero gas. My last trips to Key Largo, Maui, and Oahu almost everyone was doing it. Of course on Oahu it is tough to get a dive below around a hundred feet. But, still, a hundred feet on a limited gas supply is stretching it.

Even more common is blowing off a significant stop on ascent. More than once I've been doing the staged ascent thing and had a diver, or divers, come storming by. As for a slow ascent from the "safety stop" to the surface; forget it. Probably the most dramatic of those was the guy who was at 100' and bolted for the surface, passing divers, including me, who had lots of gas to share and losing his mask on the way. When I asked him why? He said he was told to be back on the boat with 500psi and he only had 500psi when he started up. He was mystified why he felt rotten and had to sit out the next dive.

How dangerous all this is remains an open question. Certainly we think it isn't good practice. But, lacking good incident/accident statistics we just don't know how many of these, to us, stupids actually result in injury.

Added: Oh yes, role of the Dive Master/Guide. In the last 10 years I've only been in one situation where the release I signed before diving and the actions of the Dive Master/Guide put that person in a responsible role over my dive. All other instances the releases very clearly spelled out that the diver was the one responsible for all dive profile decisions. Most places I've been they reinforce this during the pre-dive briefing.

[Matt S.]

Did anyone else kinda get the feeling that this was a "staged" video? Seemed like the guy had shots of his computer depth a lot. I suppose he could have been doing that for other reasons to begin with.

I first saw this video about a year ago on ScubaBoard, and there was a lot of speculation that it was staged.

Recently someone tracked down the guy who took the video and he has been participating on a thread at SB. It did not sound like he staged it when he discussed it. There was even a reason for checking the gauges though I don't recall what that was.

[Norris]

Did anyone else kinda get the feeling that this was a "staged" video? Seemed like the guy had shots of his computer depth a lot. I suppose he could have been doing that for other reasons to begin with.

I first saw this video about a year ago on ScubaBoard, and there was a lot of speculation that it was staged.

Recently someone tracked down the guy who took the video and he has been participating on a thread at SB. It did not sound like he staged it when he discussed it. There was even a reason for checking the gauges though I don't recall what that was.

I looked and found a duscussion but not with the dude..could you link please???

[H20doctor]

Well I've learned a bit from this thread ... If ya sign the waiver, the Boat and the DM don't have to watch you ... I still don't agree with the waiver and Liability issues, but it does make sense that you are going to dive a profile , and the Boat is not responsible ... Interesting

[Matt S.]

Here's the discussion with guy who took the video.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/near-m ... video.html

[ArcticDiver]

Well I've learned a bit from this thread ... If ya sign the waiver, the Boat and the DM don't have to watch you ... I still don't agree with the waiver and Liability issues, but it does make sense that you are going to dive a profile , and the Boat is not responsible ... Interesting

The reality is that most releases I've seen absolve the boat and crew from liability for anything but getting the diver to the dive site and back. That sure doesn't match the way some DMs behave does it? I'm not totally sure what would happen in court if a diver signed one of the all encompassing releases and then subsequently was hurt following a DM's instructions/commands. I think the smart operators now call the folks on board Dive Guides so as to avoid any roles and responsibilities confusion.

Side comment: One of my early dive buddies was a Brit. He was dismayed at our attitudes towards boat crews. I guess in his world the boat is in essence a taxi. It takes you where you want to go and brings you back. Anything in between in the diver's responsibility, including determining if the weather and sea conditions permit diving. I'm not so sure that isn't a better model.

[pensacoladiver]

Well I've learned a bit from this thread ... If ya sign the waiver, the Boat and the DM don't have to watch you ... I still don't agree with the waiver and Liability issues, but it does make sense that you are going to dive a profile , and the Boat is not responsible ... Interesting

The reality is that most releases I've seen absolve the boat and crew from liability for anything but getting the diver to the dive site and back. That sure doesn't match the way some DMs behave does it? I'm not totally sure what would happen in court if a diver signed one of the all encompassing releases and then subsequently was hurt following a DM's instructions/commands. I think the smart operators now call the folks on board Dive Guides so as to avoid any roles and responsibilities confusion.

Side comment: One of my early dive buddies was a Brit. He was dismayed at our attitudes towards boat crews. I guess in his world the boat is in essence a taxi. It takes you where you want to go and brings you back. Anything in between in the diver's responsibility, including determining if the weather and sea conditions permit diving. I'm not so sure that isn't a better model.

I think that is a great model. The boat crew is a business and as such, they don't have any personal friendships or whatever you want to call it with the folks utilizing their business. They have no idea about your attitude or actions in the water and as such, I believe they are right to legally distance themselves from any actions one might take to harm themselves.